I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, or to rehash a debate that's been had numerous times throughout the years. Nor am I starting this thread with the sole intention to dump on the front office or coaching staff.

I want to have an honest to discussion about what really needs to happen to build a winner here. And for me, that answer is as plain as day.

This team needs to bring a legitimate GM next season. Who that person is, I don't know right now. Maybe Ozzie Newsome would be interested in taking on the GM role again somewhere. Maybe reach out to Nick Caserio (Patriots Director of Personnel) or Mike Borgonzi (Chiefs Director of Personnel) and offer them a GM position, which would include a sizeable increase in salary.

If it isn't clear to you now that this setup we have here will never work then I don't know what team you've been watching for the last 30 years.

The Brown family should remove themselves from all football related decisions. And "Yes Men" and "lifers" like Duke Tobin need to hit the road. Duke Tobin can go kick rocks.

Then, we need to invest in our scouting department. We don't have to spend to the league average. Just put us in like the 30th percentile, or like 22nd in the league in scouting budget. We need more than 4 scouts. Maybe stretch that out to at least 10 or 15 guys.

And lastly, the entire coaching staff needs to be blown up. The big 3 (Taylor, Callahan, and Lou) all have absolutely no business being employed at the level they are right now. None of these guys could secure a coordinators job next season if they were to leave. Get them the hell out of here.

And this is where you start....

A real, qualified GM, with a respectable scouting department. Let him hire a competent head coach (Eric Bienemy) and let them build their own staff. Don't force them to keep a Darren Simmons just because he's been here since George W was in office. Let them choose. And give them a legitimate budget to attract the talent they want to bring on board.

Not only does all of the above make the chance of success greater, it also changes the entire culture of the organization. It's a clean slate. It's brings new life into the building, with new goals and new standards.

And maybe when you get done with all of this, you start working on building a practice facility, which you can work into the negotiations with Hamilton County.

I know some people hate to hear this, or they think that because it's unlikely to happen then it's not worth discussing. But that doesn't change the fact that this is what really needs to be done if you want this team to ever truly compete. Nobody is asking for the world here, just pretty much what every other professional team does.

The Browns can't build a winner, Duke Tobin is not a GM, nor is qualified to be a GM. He can't even run a scouting department. And this coaching staff is in so over their heads it's ridiculous.

Blow it all up. Start building something great after the season. We already have Joe Burrow, who looks completely capable of commanding a legitimate contender down the road. It's time we bring in equally capable people to build the team around him.

(09-18-2020, 11:15 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, or to rehash a debate that's been had numerous times throughout the years.  Nor am I starting this thread with the sole intention to dump on the front office or coaching staff.

I want to have an honest to discussion about what really needs to happen to build a winner here.  And for me, that answer is as plain as day.

This team needs to bring a legitimate GM next season.  Who that person is, I don't know right now.  Maybe Ozzie Newsome would be interested in taking on the GM role again somewhere.  Maybe reach out to Nick Caserio (Patriots Director of Personnel) or Mike Borgonzi (Chiefs Director of Personnel) and offer them a GM position, which would include a sizeable increase in salary.

If it isn't clear to you now that this setup we have here will never work then I don't know what team you've been watching for the last 30 years.

The Brown family should remove themselves from all football related decisions.  And "Yes Men" and "lifers" like Duke Tobin need to hit the road.  Duke Tobin can go kick rocks.

Then, we need to invest in our scouting department.  We don't have to spend to the league average.  Just put us in like the 30th percentile, or like 22nd in the league in scouting budget.  We need more than 4 scouts.  Maybe stretch that out to at least 10 or 15 guys.

And lastly, the entire coaching staff needs to be blown up.  The big 3 (Taylor, Callahan, and Lou) all have absolutely no business being employed at the level they are right now.  None of these guys could secure a coordinators job next season if they were to leave.  Get them the hell out of here.

And this is where you start....

A real, qualified GM, with a respectable scouting department.  Let him hire a competent head coach (Eric Bienemy) and let them build their own staff.  Don't force them to keep a Darren Simmons just because he's been here since George W was in office.  Let them choose.  And give them a legitimate budget to attract the talent they want to bring on board.

Not only does all of the above make the chance of success greater, it also changes the entire culture of the organization.  It's a clean slate.  It's brings new life into the building, with new goals and new standards.

And maybe when you get done with all of this, you start working on building a practice facility, which you can work into the negotiations with Hamilton County.

I know some people hate to hear this, or they think that because it's unlikely to happen then it's not worth discussing.  But that doesn't change the fact that this is what really needs to be done if you want this team to ever truly compete.  Nobody is asking for the world here, just pretty much what every other professional team does.

The Browns can't build a winner, Duke Tobin is not a GM, nor is qualified to be a GM.  He can't even run a scouting department.  And this coaching staff is in so over their heads it's ridiculous.

Blow it all up.  Start building something great after the season.  We already have Joe Burrow, who looks completely capable of commanding a legitimate contender down the road.  It's time we bring in equally capable people to build the team around him.

Couldn't agree more.  They took baby steps in offseason with those unprecedented FA signings but when you talk about "culture change" thats Top Down. If Dorsey is available that would be interesting..he has a lot to do with the talent on Browns right now (Chubb, Baker, Hunt, Ward, Garret, Mack Wilson etc.). 

Never gonna happen. Not while Mike is around anyway. What Katie and Troy will do who knows, but I don’t see a legitimate GM in our near future.

We'll never get it, because Mike, Katie and Troy will always hang onto the fact that the team had previous success under the current arrangement. As far as just making the playoffs, that is.

People on Twitter accuse me of being reactionary, but take this to the bank. Zac Taylor is not the guy, and he will be fired from here. It's literally only a question of when, and my only hope is the team doesn't drag its feet too long in making that call.

Some good points, and of course I'd like to see a GM, but the main issue from a strictly Xs and Os standpoint is we are getting our asses kicked in the trenches. On BOTH sides of the ball.

(09-18-2020, 11:49 AM)Wyche Wrote: Some good points, and of course I'd like to see a GM, but the main issue from a strictly Xs and Os standpoint is we are getting our asses kicked in the trenches. On BOTH sides of the ball.

Yes, and its getting to be unbearable to watch this team get manhandled Yr in Yr out in the trenches. I may have to take a yr off its so hard to watch at times. We all know this is where the games are won and we continue to be a laughing stock , and seen as a soft team. Its sickening really. Had they signed a quality G and OT in offseason maybe our O line issues would be better. The Dline  is overated. Dunlap and Hubbard dont scare anyone out there and Atkins is on his last tour of duty....  
Has anyone thought about the onslaught coming at Burrow?..Pitt and Bal, 2 X each ? He may not make it out alive.

The oline is physically weak overall and they have no fullbacks of any kind, which translates to a weak rushing attack with the highly paid rbs. And if they face physical pass rushers, they simply just cant matchup good enough for a full game.

The dline showed weakness as well. Giving Geno that huge contract on the downside of his career is still a bad move imo, as his best years are behind him.

These are massive problems, especially with the oline. And it goes back to what the OP is saying, bad decision making these last few years. Sure they are trying to fix the oline, but they are failing massively. Yet nothing changes with how they operate. Just trying doesnt cut it in the NFL, everyone trys. But those that are on a streak of failing typically get canned pretty quick regardless of trying.

(09-18-2020, 11:39 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Never gonna happen. Not while Mike is around anyway. What Katie and Troy will do who knows, but I don’t see a legitimate GM in our near future.

^^^^This^^^^


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FIRST THING WE DO IS FIRE LUE ANARUMO.

Ego's a funny thing.

I guess it's easy to say this since it's purely hypothetical, but if I were Mike Brown's son and I didn't have any football knowledge or savvy whatsoever, I'd actively want to have a general manager in here to handle that stuff. That way I could sit back and reap the benefits of fielding a good football team managed by someone who actually knew what they were doing.

Just going by Troy's comments about Bobby Hart back in 2019, I imagine he's going to be a problem when he and Katie take over in full. Say whatever you will about Mike Brown, I've never seen him defend a re-signing in the manner that Troy did. Really rubbed me the wrong way.

The Bengals job was the worst job open when Taylor was hired. Having Joe Burrow instantly makes the job more attractive. What should happen is fire Taylor this year - it is obvious that he is over his head. What we know will happen is Taylor will be given at least two more seasons after this.

Attack the trenches.

They need to fix the depth on offensive and defensive lines. I know the defensive line is beat up but theres alot of age there. The offensive line needs an overhaul plus they have had bad luck when drafting and bringing in FA/Trades.

(09-18-2020, 01:24 PM)Nati#1 Wrote: FIRST THING WE DO IS FIRE LUE ANARUMO.

He doesn’t seem like he can put a decent defense together. Not ready for the job in my opinion.


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I could not agree more with the OP. And I could not agree more with the commenters that ut won't happen.

Maybe the spectacle of having Joe Burrow getting crushed every week will have the light go on for Mike Brown and he beefs up scouting and hires a professional GM. But I doubt it.

Other than that?

1. Get rid of Turner & Lou.
2. Fix the OL.
3. Mandate a FB & a big back on the 53.
4. First & goal from inside the 1 should always be a QB sneak.

(09-18-2020, 11:15 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, or to rehash a debate that's been had numerous times throughout the years.  Nor am I starting this thread with the sole intention to dump on the front office or coaching staff.

I want to have an honest to discussion about what really needs to happen to build a winner here.  And for me, that answer is as plain as day.

This team needs to bring a legitimate GM next season.  Who that person is, I don't know right now.  Maybe Ozzie Newsome would be interested in taking on the GM role again somewhere.  Maybe reach out to Nick Caserio (Patriots Director of Personnel) or Mike Borgonzi (Chiefs Director of Personnel) and offer them a GM position, which would include a sizeable increase in salary.

If it isn't clear to you now that this setup we have here will never work then I don't know what team you've been watching for the last 30 years.

The Brown family should remove themselves from all football related decisions.  And "Yes Men" and "lifers" like Duke Tobin need to hit the road.  Duke Tobin can go kick rocks.

Then, we need to invest in our scouting department.  We don't have to spend to the league average.  Just put us in like the 30th percentile, or like 22nd in the league in scouting budget.  We need more than 4 scouts.  Maybe stretch that out to at least 10 or 15 guys.

And lastly, the entire coaching staff needs to be blown up.  The big 3 (Taylor, Callahan, and Lou) all have absolutely no business being employed at the level they are right now.  None of these guys could secure a coordinators job next season if they were to leave.  Get them the hell out of here.

And this is where you start....

A real, qualified GM, with a respectable scouting department.  Let him hire a competent head coach (Eric Bienemy) and let them build their own staff.  Don't force them to keep a Darren Simmons just because he's been here since George W was in office.  Let them choose.  And give them a legitimate budget to attract the talent they want to bring on board.

Not only does all of the above make the chance of success greater, it also changes the entire culture of the organization.  It's a clean slate.  It's brings new life into the building, with new goals and new standards.

And maybe when you get done with all of this, you start working on building a practice facility, which you can work into the negotiations with Hamilton County.

I know some people hate to hear this, or they think that because it's unlikely to happen then it's not worth discussing.  But that doesn't change the fact that this is what really needs to be done if you want this team to ever truly compete.  Nobody is asking for the world here, just pretty much what every other professional team does.

The Browns can't build a winner, Duke Tobin is not a GM, nor is qualified to be a GM.  He can't even run a scouting department.  And this coaching staff is in so over their heads it's ridiculous.

Blow it all up.  Start building something great after the season.  We already have Joe Burrow, who looks completely capable of commanding a legitimate contender down the road.  It's time we bring in equally capable people to build the team around him.

The play calling, defense, and right side of the oline is awful!! Lou has to go. Zac has to turn over the play calling to a proven OC. The "old gaurd", Los,Geno, and AJ all need to go.

They have to do a better job of scouting, period. Especially, in the trenches. More tackling drills. Then some more tackling. The weaknesses of this team are apparent to friend and foe alike!

(09-18-2020, 01:30 PM)RiverRat13 Wrote: The Bengals job was the worst job open when Taylor was hired.  Having Joe Burrow instantly makes the job more attractive.  What should happen is fire Taylor this year - it is obvious that he is over his head.  What we know will happen is Taylor will be given at least two more seasons after this.

Part of that, I believe, is because Taylor is also trying to call offensive plays while also being a HC.
Let Callahan call the plays or bring in a different OC who can.
Taylor isn't Andy Reid who has multiple years of leading high-powered offenses deep into the postseason.

(09-18-2020, 01:27 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Just going by Troy's comments about Bobby Hart back in 2019, I imagine he's going to be a problem when he and Katie take over in full.  Say whatever you will about Mike Brown, I've never seen him defend a re-signing in the manner that Troy did.  Really rubbed me the wrong way.

So much this.

Those comments really rubbed me the wrong way, and made me very nervous for the future.

He's clearly invloved in football related decisions.  I'm not saying he as a ton of say right now, nor would I try to define his actual role.  But just the fact he has an opinion that he's willing to publicly share is scary enough.

Front office guys who only do marketing, contracts, misc. business, don't generally sound off on a football related topics.  If they even have an opinion they're not going to share it.  Why?  Because it's not their job.  Nor are they qualified to speak for the team.

But we get this clown sounding off on a free agent signing?  Why?  Because he's clearly involved in some way.  And not only is this dolt with no football background confident enough to leak out his opinion, he comes across like an asbolute idiot in doing it.

I'm VERY scared that him and Katie actually have input beyond numbers and business.  And if you think Mike is bad, then these two are even worse.

I don't ever want to hear Troy Blackburn's opinion on anything ever again, and I sure as hell hope every other coach, scout and trainer in the building feels the same way.

(09-18-2020, 02:27 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So much this.

Those comments really rubbed me the wrong way, and made me very nervous for the future.

He's clearly invloved in football related decisions.  I'm not saying he as a ton of say right now, nor would I try to define his actual role.  But just the fact he has an opinion that he's willing to publicly share is scary enough.

Front office guys who only do marketing, contracts, misc. business, don't generally sound off on a football related topics.  If they even have an opinion they're not going to share it.  Why?  Because it's not their job.  Nor are they qualified to speak for the team.

But we get this clown sounding off on a free agent signing?  Why?  Because he's clearly involved in some way.  And not only is this dolt with no football background confident enough to leak out his opinion, he comes across like an asbolute idiot in doing it.

I'm VERY scared that him and Katie actually have input beyond numbers and business.  And if you think Mike is bad, then these two are even worse.

I don't ever want to hear Troy Blackburn's opinion on anything ever again, and I sure as hell hope every other coach, scout and trainer in the building feels the same way.

Tobin has many more hits than misses. Ill trust Tobin over someone that thinks Tate should be number 3 receiver

(09-18-2020, 02:30 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Tobin has many more hits than misses. Ill trust Tobin over someone that thinks Tate should be number 3 receiver

Tobin hasn’t produced a winning team in 5 years. You can’t live off your past forever.

(09-18-2020, 02:27 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So much this.

Those comments really rubbed me the wrong way, and made me very nervous for the future.

He's clearly invloved in football related decisions.  I'm not saying he as a ton of say right now, nor would I try to define his actual role.  But just the fact he has an opinion that he's willing to publicly share is scary enough.

Front office guys who only do marketing, contracts, misc. business, don't generally sound off on a football related topics.  If they even have an opinion they're not going to share it.  Why?  Because it's not their job.  Nor are they qualified to speak for the team.

But we get this clown sounding off on a free agent signing?  Why?  Because he's clearly involved in some way.  And not only is this dolt with no football background confident enough to leak out his opinion, he comes across like an asbolute idiot in doing it.

I'm VERY scared that him and Katie actually have input beyond numbers and business.  And if you think Mike is bad, then these two are even worse.

I don't ever want to hear Troy Blackburn's opinion on anything ever again, and I sure as hell hope every other coach, scout and trainer in the building feels the same way.

A trip down memory lane, for those of you who have forgotten:

“For those who say you shouldn’t have signed Bobby Hart, who is going to play right tackle? Who? Oh, maybe you’ll draft one in the third round and he’ll come on. Really? You’re going to bet your season on that? We may still draft somebody. We haven’t had the draft yet. But you just can’t criticize. In our business you have to solve the problem. If you’re not going to play him, tell me who? Trent Brown at $17 million? Really? A seventh-round draft pick? Let go essentially by his team. Really? We can’t go to WalMart and buy off the shelf. A high quality starting right tackle? That doesn’t exist (in free agency). You have to deal in the universe of options you have. We ended up signing eight guys. That’s probably above average. Were they perfect? You’re not going to get perfect. …” - Troy Blackburn, March 2019