(09-20-2020, 03:16 PM)Bronxbengal Wrote: Don’t think Auden has much leverage here.  Shut up and understand your role on the team.  


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Tate needs an inspirational pep talk from Dwayne Johnson....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlYRJOW-JD4

(09-20-2020, 04:19 PM)Whatever Wrote: Points like "His lack of speed is overstated" are "nub-uh" type arguments.  You're not supporting that position at all.

It's not. It's constantly pointed out by you and a couple others how "painfully slow" he is. Watch the tape. He's not "painfully slow" and he's not so slow that he hinders the offense. The proof is right there in front of your eyes.

(09-20-2020, 04:19 PM)Whatever Wrote: Points like "His lack of speed is overstated" are "nub-uh" type arguments.  You're not supporting that position at all.

Neither player is injured right now, so that really doesn't play into it.  Maybe you look at it when cutting to 53, but not on who dresses.  If you're not dressing a guy because he's injury prone and you're afraid he'll get hurt, he shouldn't be on the roster to begin with.  Tate also has an extensive injury history going back to college, so it's not like he's proven to be durable.  

As far as Tate catching the ball, they caught the exact same % of their targets last year.  I'm not sure what you consider a negative play.  They both fumbled once last year.  Are we talking negative yardage plays?  If we're talking incompletions as negative plays, they had the same catch%, so the same incompletion%.  

Honestly, very few coaches rearrange their systems around players.  The fact that they changed the run blocking scheme last year was very rare.  They tend to lobby for players that fit their scheme, which is why it typically takes them a year or two to rebuild once they take a new job.  Tate doesn't seem to fit that scheme, hence he's the odd man out.  They also have the benefit of practice and knowing the play calls when they evaluate game film.  Tate ran a limited route tree last year, likely because there's a number of routes he struggled with in practice.  It's also very likely due to his current position on the depth that a lot of these incompletions on bad throws the fans blamed on Andy were actually on Tate.  The coaches know the play and know where he's supposed to be and they know if he's slow out of his breaks, not running routes at the correct depth, etc., etc.

I do agree that based on what he's done the first 2 games that Thomas should start seeing more of the snaps in Ross's spot.  The guy has been getting open, making the catches, and Joe seems to trust him.  However, that doesn't mean Tate should be active or playing more.  Even if Thomas completely supplants Ross at that spot, Ross still has to be active as his backup to give him a rest or if he gets injured so they can still run their offense.  Tate doesn't have the skill set to play that position.  Erickson is Boyd's backup in the slot.  Tate was supposed to be AJ's backup, but it seems Higgins has already climbed over him for that job.  That puts Tate the odd man out because he can't run the offense at the other two spots due to his limited skill set.

You’ve made some good points. Rep

(09-20-2020, 04:19 PM)Whatever Wrote: Neither player is injured right now, so that really doesn't play into it.  Maybe you look at it when cutting to 53, but not on who dresses.  If you're not dressing a guy because he's injury prone and you're afraid he'll get hurt, he shouldn't be on the roster to begin with.  Tate also has an extensive injury history going back to college, so it's not like he's proven to be durable.  



As far as Tate catching the ball, they caught the exact same % of their targets last year.  I'm not sure what you consider a negative play.  They both fumbled once last year.  Are we talking negative yardage plays?  If we're talking incompletions as negative plays, they had the same catch%, so the same incompletion%.  

Ross has a documented injury history in his time in the NFL, that's indisputable. Tate doesn't, to nearly the same extent.

You know damn good and well that Ross has dropped or simply missed a number of catchable, critical passes. You KNOW  this. How many has Tate dropped? Catch % is not a be all end all. 

It's these kinds of replies that start to piss me off and cause me to just say "**** it" and ignore them and move on. I'm not trying to take shots at you, just pointing out that you're twisting, contorting and omitting things..., for arguments sake? I don't know but it's maddeningly aggrivating to have to read all those words for something that dishonest.

One thing that I think may be slightly overlooked is the fact that Auden Tate may have a future here beyond the season. John Ross does not.

Auden Tate is signed though next season. I'd be shocked if John Ross were to be brought back. Not only do I think the team would choose not to resign Ross, I don't think Ross, nor his agent, would want to come back. I'm sure they're as anxious for a fresh start as the Bengals are for freeing up his cap space.

Now, I'm not saying this is reason alone to play Tate more, or for him to take reps from John Ross. But I do think it's just one more reason why they need to get him some work.

This dude, from all accounts, has been the consumate professional since arriving here. His work in the offseason, and in practice, as been praised by two different staffs, and the compliments about his work ethic have been consistent from year to year.

He's played special teams when asked, he's showed incredibly toughness coming back from that hit last season, and I've never heard a single bad thing about the dude.

I don't think we lose anything with not playing Ross. People say he opens up the field, yet we haven't seen that yet. He[s been non-existent himself. Not to mention the fact that Alex Erikson takes up a spot to be an average at best punt returner. Give PR to Ross, or to Bernard, or to Brandon Wilson.

There is no excuse for Auden Tate to be inactive for a game. None.

(09-20-2020, 04:48 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: One thing that I think may be slightly overlooked is the fact that Auden Tate may have a future here beyond the season.  John Ross does not.

Yep

(09-20-2020, 04:47 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Ross has a documented injury history in his time in the NFL, that's indisputable. Tate doesn't, to nearly the same extent.

You know damn good and well that Ross has dropped or simply missed a number of catchable, critical passes. You KNOW  this. How many has Tate dropped? Catch % is not a be all end all. 

It's these kinds of replies that start to piss me off and cause me to just say "**** it" and ignore them and move on. I'm not trying to take shots at you, just pointing out that you're twisting, contorting and omitting things..., for arguments sake? I don't know but it's maddeningly aggrivating to have to read all those words for something that dishonest.

Both guys were injured in camp last year.  Both guys went on IR last year.  Tate has made it through one full season at the college and pro level without missing games.  Not that any of that really matters, as both guys are healthy now.  If Ross is injured, he should sit and they should dress Tate, but he isn't.

Ross drops a lot more balls than Tate.  Ross also creates more separation which creates easier throws for the QB so they don't have to try and squeeze it into a spot only the WR can get it.  That's why they have the same catch % despite Ross having a lot more drops.  An incompletion is an incompletion, regardless of if the WR drops it or the QB can't squeeze it in because the receiver couldn't get open.  It's the same net result.  One isn't better than the other.  The difference is Ross generates more yards per catch and Ross scores TD's at a much higher rate.  

I'm not being dishonest about anything.  I just see it differently.  Are you going to tell me the Auden Tate fans don't twist, contort, and ommitt things?  Like the Tate fans never want to bring up TD's in comparisons between the two.  Or the Mike Williams comparisons.  When you see how much pressure Williams put on our defense vertically, you have to wonder if the people comping him to Tate have ever seen the guy play.  

The bottom line is, if Tate was a fit for what the Bengals want from their offense, they wouldn't have taken Higgins in the 2nd and put the FT on AJ. They wouldn't have made him a healthy scratch in a key division game. Those are glaring signs that the coaches and FO see something the fans don't.  I understand why people like Tate.  He makes some amazing catches.  But I also have to look at things from the coach's view and understand why they aren't high on the guy.  

(09-20-2020, 07:21 PM)Whatever Wrote: Both guys were injured in camp last year.  Both guys went on IR last year.  Tate has made it through one full season at the college and pro level without missing games.  Not that any of that really matters, as both guys are healthy now.  If Ross is injured, he should sit and they should dress Tate, but he isn't.

Ross drops a lot more balls than Tate.  Ross also creates more separation which creates easier throws for the QB so they don't have to try and squeeze it into a spot only the WR can get it.  That's why they have the same catch % despite Ross having a lot more drops.  An incompletion is an incompletion, regardless of if the WR drops it or the QB can't squeeze it in because the receiver couldn't get open.  It's the same net result.  One isn't better than the other.  The difference is Ross generates more yards per catch and Ross scores TD's at a much higher rate.  

I'm not being dishonest about anything.  I just see it differently.  Are you going to tell me the Auden Tate fans don't twist, contort, and ommitt things?  Like the Tate fans never want to bring up TD's in comparisons between the two.  Or the Mike Williams comparisons.  When you see how much pressure Williams put on our defense vertically, you have to wonder if the people comping him to Tate have ever seen the guy play.  

The bottom line is, if Tate was a fit for what the Bengals want from their offense, they wouldn't have taken Higgins in the 2nd and put the FT on AJ. They wouldn't have made him a healthy scratch in a key division game. Those are glaring signs that the coaches and FO see something the fans don't.  I understand why people like Tate.  He makes some amazing catches.  But I also have to look at things from the coach's view and understand why they aren't high on the guy.  

See that's the problem right there. It's not about being a Tate fan or a Ross fan. It's about the BENGALS winning football games and Ross has way more than proven he can't help us win. He's just way, way, to inconsistent.

(09-20-2020, 07:26 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: See that's the problem right there. It's not about being a Tate fan or a Ross fan. It's about the BENGALS winning football games and Ross has way more than proven he can't help us win. He's just way, way, to inconsistent.

Exactly. I defended Ross on here since day one, but at some point enough is enough. 2 different HC’s, 2 different starting QB’s, same poopy WR.

I don't know if anyone has paid attention but Ross's snaps dropped big time from the Chargers game to the Browns game. Ross played 28 snaps vs the Browns which was 30%. Tee Higgins is the guy that got the second most snaps at WR behind Tyler Boyd....So they are already moving Ross out.

(09-20-2020, 04:48 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: One thing that I think may be slightly overlooked is the fact that Auden Tate may have a future here beyond the season.  John Ross does not.

Auden Tate is signed though next season.  I'd be shocked if John Ross were to be brought back.  Not only do I think the team would choose not to resign Ross, I don't think Ross, nor his agent, would want to come back.  I'm sure they're as anxious for a fresh start as the Bengals are for freeing up his cap space.

Now, I'm not saying this is reason alone to play Tate more, or for him to take reps from John Ross.  But I do think it's just one more reason why they need to get him some work.

This dude, from all accounts, has been the consumate professional since arriving here.  His work in the offseason, and in practice, as been praised by two different staffs, and the compliments about his work ethic have been consistent from year to year.

He's played special teams when asked, he's showed incredibly toughness coming back from that hit last season, and I've never heard a single bad thing about the dude.

I don't think we lose anything with not playing Ross.  People say he opens up the field, yet we haven't seen that yet.  He[s been non-existent himself.  Not to mention the fact that Alex Erikson takes up a spot to be an average at best punt returner.  Give PR to Ross, or to Bernard, or to Brandon Wilson.

There is no excuse for Auden Tate to be inactive for a game.  None.

Tate is not under contract next season, either.  He signed a 3 year rookie deal and will be a RFA next year.  The Bengals may decide not to tender him.  Given his current standing on the team, he is probably seen as not being a scheme fit.

Ross stated this off-season that he hasn't played up to his contract or draft standing and it is up to him to prove that he deserves to stay here beyond this year.  The assumption that he doesn't want to stay here doesn't seem accurate based on that.

As for character, Ross and his camp has never complained in the media about his usage.  Tate's camp has.  Tate has done nothing to refute his agent's claims, either.  Especially funny was the "he's not going to be a distraction" line when that's exactly what he's made himself.  From that standpoint, I wouldn't reward a guy with PT for his camp going public with crap like that.  It sets a very bad precedent and you'll soon have eery bench warmer on the team doing the same.  

(09-20-2020, 07:39 PM)Synric Wrote: I don't know if anyone has paid attention but Ross's snaps dropped big time from the Chargers game to the Browns game. Ross played 28 snaps vs the Browns which was 30%. Tee Higgins is the guy that got the second most snaps at WR behind Tyler Boyd....So they are already moving Ross out.

That’s encouraging. I definitely want to see a lot more Higgins. Let’s get him and Burrow developing together.

(09-20-2020, 07:39 PM)Whatever Wrote: Tate is not under contract next season, either.  He signed a 3 year rookie deal and will be a RFA next year.  The Bengals may decide not to tender him.  Given his current standing on the team, he is probably seen as not being a scheme fit.

I was just going by this:  https://overthecap.com/player/auden-tate/7138/

Usually they're pretty accurate, but maybe they're off on this?

Edit: Spotrac has the same numbers: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/auden-tate-25354/

(09-20-2020, 07:44 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I was just going by this:  https://overthecap.com/player/auden-tate/7138/

Usually they're pretty accurate, but maybe they're off on this?

Edit: Spotrac has the same numbers: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/auden-tate-25354/

No. You and they are right. He's a UFA in 2022. I won't make any more comments beside that(dotdotdot) 

(09-20-2020, 07:26 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: See that's the problem right there. It's not about being a Tate fan or a Ross fan. It's about the BENGALS winning football games and Ross has way more than proven he can't help us win. He's just way, way, to inconsistent.

Which is fine.  I've stated numerous times Thomas should start getting more of Ross's snaps because he can handle the same assignments and has outplayed him the first two games.  You need to keep Ross active as his backup, however, so you can run your offense if Thomas gets hurt or needs a blow.

We also need to be realistic here.  It isn't like either guy has helped this team win many games.  If you're trying to win games, though, you play the guy that's more of a TD threat over the guy that can't get in the end zone.

(09-20-2020, 07:39 PM)Synric Wrote: I don't know if anyone has paid attention but Ross's snaps dropped big time from the Chargers game to the Browns game. Ross played 28 snaps vs the Browns which was 30%. Tee Higgins is the guy that got the second most snaps at WR behind Tyler Boyd....So they are already moving Ross out.

What were AJ's?

I was hoping someone would post the snap counts for this week to see where he ended up.

He came out quite a bit from what I remember.  I was shaking my head when they took him out on a 3rd and 13.

I really wonder how healthy he is.  I believe he was 3rd on the team in snap count among WR in week 1.  I have a feeling his count wasn't as high as you'd normally expect this week either.

I was told his missed time in training camp was purely precautionary, and he'd ready to go to start the season.  He looks like he's getting a lot of rest for a 18 mil dollar WR1.

(09-20-2020, 07:48 PM)Whatever Wrote: Which is fine.  I've stated numerous times Thomas should start getting more of Ross's snaps because he can handle the same assignments and has outplayed him the first two games.  You need to keep Ross active as his backup, however, so you can run your offense if Thomas gets hurt or needs a blow.

We also need to be realistic here.  It isn't like either guy has helped this team win many games.  If you're trying to win games, though, you play the guy that's more of a TD threat over the guy that can't get in the end zone.

Right. Because they simply can't run the offense if Ross is not in there. 

(09-20-2020, 07:51 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: What were AJ's?

I was hoping someone would post the snap counts for this week to see where he ended up.

He came out quite a bit from what I remember.  I was shaking my head when they took him out on a 3rd and 13.

I really wonder how healthy he is.  I believe he was 3rd on the team in snap count among WR in week 1.  I have a feeling his count wasn't as high as you'd normally expect this week either.

I was told his missed time in training camp was purely precautionary, and he'd ready to go to start the season.  He looks like he's getting a lot of rest for a 18 mil dollar WR1.

57 snaps. 62%

(09-20-2020, 07:44 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I was just going by this:  https://overthecap.com/player/auden-tate/7138/

Usually they're pretty accurate, but maybe they're off on this?

Edit: Spotrac has the same numbers: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/auden-tate-25354/

My bad.  Spotrac threw me off, because it has him listed at a 3 year deal when you look at the text, not the details.  Someone was also defending his posturing earlier in this thread by saying he was in a contract year. .

(09-20-2020, 07:51 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Right. Because they simply can't run the offense if Ross is not in there. 

They can obviously run it without Tate in there.  Know how many games the Bengals have scored 30 points in where was Tate was thrown to?  Exactly 0.