(09-20-2020, 07:11 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Which could just be a nice way of saying "Thanks for your time, but we're going with someone else."

Of course, maybe it's true.  Maybe Del Rio even stepped away from a potential offer.

The point is, there had to be better candidates that Lou.  Again, I don't think it's any coincidence that  he ultimately selected a guy he had history with.

I refuse to believe he was the best option.  Familiarity drove the hiring more than timing.  To each their own though...

The point is, they tried to get others before Anarumo.  The guy was the third choice at best.

(09-20-2020, 07:19 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: The point is, they tried to get others before Anarumo.  The guy was the third choice at best.

The point is, he shouldn't have been a choice at all.

(09-20-2020, 07:01 PM)P W Wrote: It may not be his choice. They could fire him. The 2020 Vikings are really going to have to do an about face to even sniff a wildcard spot. If they go 6-10 or worse, don't think Zimmer is going to complete that 3 year extension. And I can not believe how bad they look on both sides of the ball. Maybe they turn it around starting around week 5/6 when some of the players could come back, or they don't. And Zimmer being out of work at the end of the season under that circumstance, is not that far of leap.

Of course it wouldn't be his choice, as he is under contract for 3 more years.  But they won't fire him, as they owe him beau coup money for several more years.

(09-20-2020, 06:51 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I love how Duke Tobin is the "de facto GM", and has been essentially running things for awhile.  But before many of the same things were said about Marvin. 

So which one is it?  Was Marvin essentially the GM, or was Duke Tobin?

The real answer is neither.  The front office's fingerprints can still be found on a lot moves (Cough, Bobby Hart). 

Marvin was just a head coach that had to wear many hats due to a small front office.  Just because he did some scouting and had some say over players doesn't mean he was like a GM.

And even if people want to say he has the experience and background necessary for the job (he doesn't), the fact is his teams never won a single playoff game.

Why would you hire a guy whose experience consists of helping to build teams that didn't win one single playoff game in 16 years.  It makes no sense.

Yuuuup. The only reason the Bengals even had that stretch ('11-'15) was because of just 2 reasons.

1. Jay Gruden convincing Mike Brown to draft Andy Dalton instead of Ryan Mallett, who was Mike Brown's preferred QB.
2. Mike Zimmer's D

That's it.

- - - - -
(Regardless of anyone's personal opinion of Dalton, I think we can 100% universally agree that if Ryan Mallett was the Bengals QB instead, it would have been dark times.)

(09-20-2020, 07:21 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: The point is, he shouldn't have been a choice at all.

Del Rio and Capers had phone conversations, but not enough mutual interest with either. 
Grantham interviewed, negotiated and then returned to Florida. 
Allen and Glenn were both blocked from interviewing by the Saints.
Hafley declined an interview because he had just signed with OSU. 
Elko didn't interview because he wanted to stay with the Aggies.
Manuel and Pleasant were reported to have been contacted, but nothing came of those.

So, it's not like Lou was anywhere near the top of the list or probably even on Zac's initial radar, but after they got so late in the process and candidates kept going off the board...he went with someone he knew and and was comfortable with.

I wasn't a fan of Lou getting the job, but I understood it at the time, given the situation. 

(09-20-2020, 07:08 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I prefer to go with track record.  He's a proven commodity, with a lot of history to support that he's a great defensive mind.

Their DC left in the offseaon to go to Dallas.  They now have two Co-Coordinators.  And they lost a ton of talent in the offseason.

I think he'll get it figured out.  They may not be as good as they were last season, but I don't think their defense will continue to look this bad.  They got a lot of new players they're trying to work in right now.

What really hurt them today was their offense, and specifically Kirk Cousins.  The dude was 11-26 for 113 yards, with no TD's and 3 picks.  He had a 15.9 QB rating.

I don't care how good your defense is, that kind of play from your QB is going to lead to points.  They still only gave up 28, and held Rivers to 215 with 1 TD and 1 INT.  They didn't do great on the ground (151 yards) but were far from abysmal.  Had the offense stayed on the field more, and had they not turned it over, I think the defensive numbers would have actually been pretty strong.

So do we but that doesn't seem to matter, nor does not having Geno in the middle of our DLine. Funny how fine the line between explanation and excuse is.

(09-20-2020, 07:01 PM)P W Wrote: they have major player issues on defense. lost several key players on defense. also have a couple of injury issues on defense. think they have 3 defensive starters from opening day 2019 vs opening day 2020.


It may not be his choice. They could fire him. The 2020 Vikings are really going to have to do an about face to even sniff a wildcard spot. If they go 6-10 or worse, don't think Zimmer is going to complete that 3 year extension. And I can not believe how bad they look on both sides of the ball. Maybe they turn it around starting around week 5/6 when some of the players could come back, or they don't. And Zimmer being out of work at the end of the season under that circumstance, is not that far of leap.

I get it.  The Vikes get to use excuses but we don't.  We've lost a starting CB and the best player on our D and his backup.   That must be irrelevant.

(09-20-2020, 08:05 PM)McC Wrote: I get it.  The Vikes get to use excuses but we don't.  We've lost a starting CB and the best player on our D and his backup.   That must be irrelevant.

wait, 2 defensive starters being down vs 7 defensive starters gone/down, bit of a difference.

(09-20-2020, 07:48 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yuuuup. The only reason the Bengals even had that stretch ('11-'15) was because of just 2 reasons.

1. Jay Gruden convincing Mike Brown to draft Andy Dalton instead of Ryan Mallett, who was Mike Brown's preferred QB.
2. Mike Zimmer's D

That's it.

- - - - -
(Regardless of anyone's personal opinion of Dalton, I think we can 100% universally agree that if Ryan Mallett was the Bengals QB instead, it would have been dark times.)

AJ played a pretty big part as well. That 2011 draft of him and Dalton definitely setup the 5 playoff appearances in a row.

Let Madden decide

   

(09-20-2020, 08:03 PM)McC Wrote: So do we but that doesn't seem to matter, nor does not having Geno in the middle of our DLine.  Funny how fine the line between explanation and excuse is.

One team was 10-6 and an overtime away from making the conference championship.  (Vikings)

One team was 2-14 and had the worst record in the entire league. (Bengals)

One team lost their very best receiver. (Vikings)

One team gained back their very best receiver (Bengals)

One team lost 8 defensive players that played significant minutes, with the majority being starters (Vikings)

One team spent almost 150 million dollars in free agency. (Bengals)

I think you can see where the difference lies.  And as I explained earlier in the thread, when discussing Zimmer's defensive prowess, I think track record goes a long way in setting expectations and future performance.

While Mike Zimmer may get the benefit of the doubt, Zac Taylor does not.  At least not yet.

The Vikings defense was expected to be worse.  As was the team.  They had a ton of losses due to their cap situation.  The Bengals defense was expected to be better.  As was their team.  They added a ton of talent, and frankly have nowhere to go but up.

(09-20-2020, 06:42 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: Problem with a Bienemy hire is that KC will go deep into the playoffs, and again he won't be able to pick his staff, just like ZT couldn't. ZT isn't a great coach (or so results indicate so far), but I do think the fact that assistants were already picked over is a big part of the problem.

He had a chance to remedy that this past offseason though and he didn't.
So I wouldn't be surprised if the guys he has are (mostly) the guys he wanted all along.

(09-20-2020, 08:05 PM)McC Wrote: I get it.  The Vikes get to use excuses but we don't.  We've lost a starting CB and the best player on our D and his backup.   That must be irrelevant.

It's not about excuses.  It's about trying to explain why their situation is what it is, and what it may look like in the future.

The fact of the matter is they lost a ton of guys.  8 to be exact.  They also have new Co-Coordinators.

Their coach has a proven history and track record.  It's much easier to explain their situation, and to have more confidence in the head coach.

Our situation is quite different.  You say we're huring so much without Geno, yet we signed Reader in the offseason, who should probably be the better player at this point.

We're down Waynes, but we didn't have him last year.  Not to mention we added Alexander and Vonn Bell as well.

Even with 2 starters out, on paper our defense should be better.  On paper, their defense is much worse.

We're seeing much of the same as we did last year.  Why would anyone give Zac Taylor the benefit of the doubt right now?

(09-20-2020, 08:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: He had a chance to remedy that this past offseason though and he didn't.
So I wouldn't be surprised if the guys he has are (mostly) the guys he wanted all along.

Amen.

I said the same thing earlier, and got no explanation or reply.

Let's assume we ended with the guys we did only because of the timing of the hiring.  Well, why the hell weren't the replaced when we had a full year to plan, and a full offseason to court upgrades?

Because we were forced to sign these guys on short notice now we're stuck with them forever?

Balogna, he clearly wants these guys here.  He chose them, and he's stuck with them.

(09-20-2020, 08:29 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: It's not about excuses.  It's about trying to explain why their situation is what it is, and what it may look like in the future.

The fact of the matter is they lost a ton of guys.  8 to be exact.  They also have new Co-Coordinators.

Their coach has a proven history and track record.  It's much easier to explain their situation, and to have more confidence in the head coach.

Our situation is quite different.  You say we're huring so much without Geno, yet we signed Reader in the offseason, who should probably be the better player at this point.

We're down Waynes, but we didn't have him last year.  Not to mention we added Alexander and Vonn Bell as well.

Even with 2 starters out, on paper our defense should be better.  On paper, their defense is much worse.

We're seeing much of the same as we did last year.  Why would anyone give Zac Taylor the benefit of the doubt right now?

An excuse for one is an excuse for the other.  All the matters is the here and now.  His defense gave up 71.  Ours gave up 46.  That's not even close.  

You know, the game passes people by, happens all the time.

(09-20-2020, 08:20 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: AJ played a pretty big part as well. That 2011 draft of him and Dalton definitely setup the 5 playoff appearances in a row.

Doesn't matter who your WR is if the QB is absolute trash. There has to at least be mediocrity at QB for a great WR to be good. 

Just look at Larry Fitzgerald. Even Larry Fitzgerald (no doubt 1st ballot HoFer, easily top-10 WR of all time) couldn't reach even 800 yards in 2012 with a Kevin Kolb/John Skelton/Ryan Lindley three headed garbage fire at QB, and again in 2014 when Drew Stanton and Ryan Lindley made 10 of the starts that year.

Ryan Mallett is a career 55.1% completion, 9 TD/10 INT, 5.3 YPA, 66.8 QB Rating player. I don't care how good AJ Green is, if that's his QB, they aren't going to the playoffs 2011-2015.

(09-20-2020, 08:42 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Doesn't matter who your WR is if the QB is absolute trash. There has to at least be mediocrity at QB for a great WR to be good. 

Just look at Larry Fitzgerald. Even Larry Fitzgerald (no doubt 1st ballot HoFer, easily top-10 WR of all time) couldn't reach even 800 yards in 2012 with a Kevin Kolb/John Skelton/Ryan Lindley three headed garbage fire at QB, and again in 2014 when Drew Stanton and Ryan Lindley made 10 of the starts that year.

Ryan Mallett is a career 55.1% completion, 9 TD/10 INT, 5.3 YPA, 66.8 QB Rating player. I don't care how good AJ Green is, if that's his QB, they aren't going to the playoffs 2011-2015.

And they wouldn’t have gone to 5 straight with guys like Jerome Simpson or Baby Hawk as their best WR’s either.

Maybe once Marvin Jones got here, but doubtful. AJ was vital those first few years.

(09-20-2020, 08:33 PM)McC Wrote: An excuse for one is an excuse for the other.  All the matters is the here and now.  His defense gave up 71.  Ours gave up 46.  That's not even close.  

You know, the game passes people by, happens all the time.

So you're against excuses, regardless of the rationale behind them.  I think we've established that with these last few posts.

Fair enough.  But please be sure not to ever make any on our behalf.  Don't try to explain away anything from this point forward.

As easy you can turn it around on those giving the benefit of the doubt to Mike Zimmer and not the Zak Taylor, it can just as be easily be turned around on you.

No more excuses anywhere, and for any reason.  I'm in.  Are you?

Id fire Lou now and promote within. I dont think it could get any worse. It certainly hasnt got any better. I know Zac tried to bring in Florida DC Todd Grantham, but he chose to stay. We need to bring in one of the best DC in college football. Id like to have Mike Zimmer back though.

(09-20-2020, 09:03 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So you're against excuses, regardless of the rationale behind them.  I think we've established that with these last few posts.

Fair enough.  But please be sure not to ever make any on our behalf.  Don't try to explain away anything from this point forward.

As easy you can turn it around on those giving the benefit of the doubt to Mike Zimmer and not the Zak Taylor, it can just as be easily be turned around on you.

No more excuses anywhere, and for any reason.  I'm in.  Are you?

I never said I'm against excuses.  Not once.  I'm just saying there can't be a double standard for deciding was is an explanation and what us an excuse.  If there's an explanation for why Zim's D is sucking, the Bengals should get that same consideration.

Yes, they spent a bundle in FA.  But they haven't had time to gel.  Not even preseason.  If that hampers the Vikes, it hampers the Bengals too.  That's all I'm saying.