(09-19-2020, 01:38 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Eh, I feel like you give him the season.

If the team shows promise and growth, you stick with him. This team was never going to win more then 4 or 5 games this year, so the W/L record isn't what you should look at. The real indication of things would be if the team shows improvement from week 1 to week 8 to week 16.

I'm sorry, but strongly disagree. If you go 2-14 and follow it up with 4-12 or 5-11, I don't care if you have promise. Losers are losers, regardless if you lose in a less demoralizing/clusterf fashion later in the year.

That's how the Bengals ended up keeping Marvin year after year after year...
Bengals won their final 3 games in 2008 to finish 4-12, that's progress! Better keep Marvin! 
Bengals won 2 of their final 3 games in 2010 to finish 4-12, that's progress! Better keep Marvin! 
Bengals won 3 of their final 5 games in 2016 to finish 6-9-1, that's progress! Better keep Marvin!
Bengals won their final 2 games in 2017 to finish 7-9, that's progress! Better keep Marvin!

No more of that, please. Win or leave. No more moral victories or dead cat bounces at the end of a losing season. Get Ws.

(09-19-2020, 02:09 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Why do people keep saying "Players respect him"? What are the players doing to even show this? I mean, obviously they're going to say positive things, but I don't see how he's anymore respected then any other coach.

Most clear-cut way to show that you respect your coach? Win football games, which keeps their job secure.

There have been a lot of comparisons made about Cincy's coaching staff. Here are my full thoughts on the matter.

Zac Taylor was a highly questioned hire, especially with him coming rather late into the off-season, you know about all of this if you have followed the team closely recently. I think it was an interesting one, and while it was highly-panned by some because of the "talked to Sean McVay while in line" joke, this has become a trend as of recently with the Giants hiring Joe Judge as HC and perhaps is better than a simple retread hires to some which many fans of this team were afraid of. As for retreads, I think that Rivera could have worked better for the team, considering that he is a defensive-minded coach and could have done a Peyton Manning type situation where the QB virtually runs the offense. From what I have seen, without JB improvising the offensive play calling is very conservative and sometimes predictable. I also don't know how much of Rivera's defensive success is due to inheriting a good defense and drafting one of the most vaunted defensive prospects in recent memory. Yes, I know RR wasn't available but I also think the Lewis firing was a bit rash and they could have waited another year for better "retreads" to become available.

Rivera also seems to be changing the culture of an organization that is known for having a bad owner, but I think that MB is not that bad compared to Snyder, but I don't know how much of the disdain for Snyder as a person is just social media pearl-clutching and plain made-up stories people got from Redditors who wanted to seem cool. Keep in mind that this was one game and off-season with Rivera though, and many others have tried to fix WFT to no avail. Taylor has had similar reports, with players talking positively about him and the positive atmosphere team events have had since he came to Cincy. I think this is more than talk, with how little the team has been penalized during his tenure (during a 2-14 season, no less!) shows something. One should also note that coaches with cultural issues and lost teams commonly have that dirty laundry aired, see Gase, Jay Gruden from last year, and the entire Jaguars organization having so many issues that the PA had to get involved although I am not sure how much of that was due to the VP because even though Marrone is a bad coach, players seem to enjoy playing for him.

Now onto the elephant in the room, 2-16. Yes, that is an awful coaching record and there is a lot of public calls for his jobs on social media, The Bengals Board (which is even more of a funeral than social media in terms of pessimism), and even on here. I don't agree with this, I think that a coach should get at least three years, hell or high-water especially when there are so much new personnel and things to overcome regarding culture and staffing. Consider that Bill Walsh did not get a winning record until his third year. I am not saying that ZT is Bill Walsh but time is necessary to see who he is considering the situation he was thrown into, with the Lewis era's roster bottoming out and our best players being injured and AD looking broken.

I am however not a fan of our coordinators, especially Anarumo. Even though most of our defense is new, and desperately missing Geno, the defense just looked plain soft, unwilling to tackle, and unable to manufacture pass-rush. Especially with how much investment there was in the D, it is almost certainly his fault. There is also some excuse about rust from no preseason though. I feel that he is the only one that should be fired sooner rather than later, with the OC being uninspiring but there are concerns about the line and some of the WRs that should (and under this regime, probably will) be addressed before fully judging the OC. It is rather uninspiring that a so-called offensive guru's offense is this conservative and somewhat predictable so far however but he has some benefit of the doubt while the DC has none. I don't even mind the suggestion of paying Tez to practice with the D to get some physicality.

So far, ZT has been a mixed bag and has a lot to be both pessimistic and optimistic about. I think he should be given the rest of the season before getting canned but stuff has gotta change on the offensive side of the roster and the coaches of the defensive side of the ball. And this is my couch GM opinion that is shared by at least one commentator, if Burrow is getting absolutely murdered out there and the season is already lost, just put Finley out there and trade a lot of veterans. If we secure the first overall pick again, trading it and still getting either Sewell and Leatherwood is possible, with that and FA, ZT and BC will have no excuses. (Although the offense wasn't terrible Thursday, I'm not convinced, the Browns have trash defense).

If they go 2 wins or less, they should fire him. I'm not one for reactionary head-hunting, but 4 wins in 2 years is not acceptable. Taylor is going to lose the locker room if a lot of these guys experience back-to-back seasons like that. Especially after they just spent big in free agency and got themselves a new franchise QB. Zac Taylor is out of excuses. No more talk about how the wins are going to come. It's time to put up or shut up.

4-6 wins ensures his job for 2021, but puts him on a warm seat.

(09-22-2020, 12:48 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Oh please. NOBODY from outside the organization or this fan base would fault the team for firing Taylor if he has another season like last year.

Sure, but we're only 2 games into this season. It's not likely (extremely not likely) but what if we ended this season14-2? 

Season's not over. Let's at least wait until we're at 6 or 7 losses before we write this season off.

(09-22-2020, 01:45 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I'm sorry, but strongly disagree. If you go 2-14 and follow it up with 4-12 or 5-11, I don't care if you have promise. Losers are losers, regardless if you lose in a less demoralizing/clusterf fashion later in the year.

Sure, but are we at 2-14 or 4-12 or 5-11 right now?

(09-22-2020, 10:55 AM)Big Boss Wrote: If they go 2 wins or less, they should fire him.  I'm not one for reactionary head-hunting, but 4 wins in 2 years is not acceptable.  Taylor is going to lose the locker room if a lot of these guys experience back-to-back seasons like that.  Especially after they just spent big in free agency and got themselves a new franchise QB.  Zac Taylor is out of excuses.  No more talk about how the wins are going to come.  It's time to put up or shut up.

4-6 wins ensures his job for 2021, but puts him on a warm seat.

For me it's 4 wins or less this year. Maybe even 5. He gets 6 wins or more and I'm fine giving him 1 more season. 4  (maybe 5) or less wins and I'm right there with everyone else calling for his head.

Zac will get sacked, he sucks. It even rhymes.

Time to focus not just on quality players, but quality coaches. It's about time.

I wouldn't expect the Bengals to have gone 2-14 last year if AJ had been able to play, but still probably no more than 4 wins.
4 wins or less this year deserves a new regime IMO.

I'm tired of seeing the offensive line pushed backwards while run blocking. If they miss out on Sewell who is a great run blocker I'll be pushing for a guy like Jackson Carman at RT. Carman is a good pass protector but he moves anyone they put in front of him in the run game. Another guy is the Guard from Boston College. 

I want them coming off the ball and moving the defensive line.

Edit: Zion Johnson Left Guard from Boston College. I blanked on the name lol.

(09-22-2020, 11:10 AM)PhilHos Wrote: For me it's 4 wins or less this year. Maybe even 5. He gets 6 wins or more and I'm fine giving him 1 more season. 4  (maybe 5) or less wins and I'm right there with everyone else calling for his head.

I just think it would take 2 wins or less for the organization to actually even humor the idea.  But yeah, if it were up to me, he'd be gone with 4 wins or less. Do what you can to get Bieniemy in here and let him build his staff.   

Sorry to jump in on page 5. Someone has probably already said this. But it is all about improvement. If this team does not show huge improvement over the course of this season then we need new coaches.

Two years is not much time but this year he got 2 first round picks and a bunch of big free agents.

(09-19-2020, 12:01 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: before we demand his removal?

Before we demand his removal? 

Because, yeah, that has always worked with the Browns before...

He still didn't get a good/real off-season, for the second year in a row. Last year he came in late and had to scramble and try to make someone else's team his own and it didn't go well. This year they've had some significant changes again to the roster (including a rookie QB) and a joke of an off-season, so my gut was that it might take a half season for them to get into their rhythm. But if it's game 10 or 12 and it still looks like this, we've got a massive problem.

The one thing that really bothers me is his desire to be OC and HC. I just don't like when coaches double-dip. It splits their focus and they're feeding their pride with the coordinator role instead of looking to elevate everyone else. It can be done (and has been, successfully) by some, but it just doesn't feel like it's Taylor's skillset, but for whatever reason he won't relinquish and just run it from the top.

(09-22-2020, 03:10 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: He still didn't get a good/real off-season, for the second year in a row.  Last year he came in late and had to scramble and try to make someone else's team his own and it didn't go well.  This year they've had some significant changes again to the roster (including a rookie QB) and a joke of an off-season, so my gut was that it might take a half season for them to get into their rhythm.  But if it's game 10 or 12 and it still looks like this, we've got a massive problem.  

The one thing that really bothers me is his desire to be OC and HC.  I just don't like when coaches double-dip.  It splits their focus and they're feeding their pride with the coordinator role instead of looking to elevate everyone else.  It can be done (and has been, successfully) by some, but it just doesn't feel like it's Taylor's skillset, but for whatever reason he won't relinquish and just run it from the top.

It's called ego. The smartest guy in the room syndrome.Freddie Kitchens failed at it in his only year in Cleveland.

(09-22-2020, 03:10 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: Last year he came in late and had to scramble and try to make someone else's team his own and it didn't go well.  

He did not get hired that late.  Many times new head coaching hires come from the staff of Super Bowl teams.  He had plenty of time to evaluate his team, free agents, and draft prospects.  And he was the head coach when we gave Preston Brown, Bobby Hart, and Gio Bernard big free agent contracts.  So those were his guys, not Marvin's.

What did hurt him was losing Boling, Green, and his first round pick before training camp even started.  That really set him back.  But this year he got a huge bonus with the return of Jonah and AJ.

Im not seeing improvement with this poindexter. He's still.losing close games.
He cant script a proper opening drive that equates to 6 pts. He's still cant make
Personal descions when guys are struggling.
He cant beat teams with winning records . Hes 1 and 6 vs the North.

(09-22-2020, 04:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He did not get hired that late.  Many times new head coaching hires come from the staff of Super Bowl teams.  He had plenty of time to evaluate his team, free agents, and draft prospects.  And he was the head coach when we gave Preston Brown, Bobby Hart, and Gio Bernard big free agent contracts.  So those were his guys, not Marvin's.

What did hurt him was losing Boling, Green, and his first round pick before training camp even started.  That really set him back.  But this year he got a huge bonus with the return of Jonah and AJ.

You can take players from someone else's roster and extend them.  But the team he had last year wasn't driven through FA and the draft and really and truly "his".  It's hard to do in the time he had.  Especially as a first-time HC without the direct experience of building a team.  

I'm not giving the guy a pass, I'm just saying it's not like he was hired the day the season ended, and got to really build it out the way he'd probably like.  

I find Taylor highly likable, and I want him to be successful.  I just think he's going to struggle with ever being a successful HC if he can't let go of some of the responsibility he's take upon himself.  And I think it's been compounded by the timing of his two off-seasons.  

(09-22-2020, 11:06 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Sure, but are we at 2-14 or 4-12 or 5-11 right now?

The 2-14 was last year. The person I replied to said they were never going to win more than 4-5 games this year.

This is a great conversation and hope when we finish 11-5 I am asked to est crow for starting this thread. Oh and donate to the board if you can so we hit the goal so Holic keeps the boss happy.

(09-21-2020, 09:19 PM)impactplaya Wrote: The NFL.is structured where you can.go 3 13 one year and 10 and 6 the next year.

You don't have to go from 3 wins to 10 wins.

But you can't go from 3 wins to 6 wins.

A coach can get more than one year to rebuild as long as he shows improvement.  And when a coach gets 2 first round draft picks (including the #1 overall pick) and multiple good free agents then he HAS to win 8 games.

Based on the crazy lack of an offseason I will give Zac a bit of a break, but only if we show steady improvement and end the season looking like we are capable of beating decent teams.