that Zac Taylor is in over his head as a head coach. If the|Bengals go 0-6 he should be fired.

48 rush yards 8 sacks.

I can already read the Hobson story where he sells us Taylor got a late start in year 1 and no real off-season work with a bunch of new faces on year 2. He will be back, which is stupid. No reason to delay the obvious and waste a second cheap Burrow season.

Mike gave Dave Shula 4.5 years...

You're kidding... right?!?

ZT is the yes man this FO loves.

He won't make waves and point out their ineptness to improve.

Who would care anyways. He didn't deserve a HC gig in the first place.

(09-27-2020, 06:07 PM)Always a Bengal Wrote: that Zac Taylor is in over his head as a head coach. If the|Bengals go 0-6 he should be fired.

0 and 6?!?! He needs fired now! Fired on the plane!

Promote Darrin Simmons to HC.
Fire Brian Callahan. Hire Hue Jackson as OC.

Fire Sweet Lou. Hire Wade Phillips as DC.

Fire Jim Turner. Hire Willie Anderson or Dave Lapham as Oline coach...

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WHEN WILL THEY REALIZE WE NEED OFFENSIVE LINEMAN

(09-27-2020, 08:17 PM)Nati#1 Wrote: WHEN WILL THEY REALIZE WE NEED OFFENSIVE LINEMAN

I think they realized when they benched Fred Johnson. That's only 18+ months after the rest of us.

(09-27-2020, 08:52 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I think they realized when they benched Fred Johnson. That's only 18+ months after the rest of us.

Progress?

I’ll give Taylor the year but I rather cut the cord early if he’s not the guy. I place most of the blame on Tobin. I don’t think Zac is going anywhere , all I can picture this offseason is Mike Brown saying everyone wanted this guy and you want me to fire him ? I spent all this money in free agency for what ?

(09-27-2020, 11:27 PM)lone bengal Wrote: I’ll give Taylor the year but I rather cut the cord early if he’s not the guy. I place most of the blame on Tobin. I don’t think Zac is going anywhere , all I can picture this offseason is Mike Brown saying everyone wanted this guy and you want me to fire him ? I spent all this money in free agency for what ?

My answers to Mike:

Not everyone wanted Taylor. Some thought hiring a position coach was a bad idea. Many wanted Bieniemy. Myself included.

Yes you spent money in FA but all on the defensive side of the ball. How could you, Tobin, and Taylor feel comfortable putting a rookie QB behind this OL?

(09-27-2020, 11:37 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: My answers to Mike:

Not everyone wanted Taylor. Some thought hiring a position coach was a bad idea. Many wanted Bieniemy. Myself included.

Yes you spent money in FA but all on the defensive side of the ball. How could you, Tobin, and Taylor feel comfortable putting a rookie QB behind this OL?

Agree just feel Mike is stubborn he’ll make a move later rather than sooner in terms of firing Taylor.

The only shot we have at winning in Oct is next weeks game at home against Jax. After that we have the Ravens, Colts, and Browns again. At this point I'm less concerned about wins and more concerned about the future. A few concerns/comments below:

1. Burrow not getting hurt or burnout on the lack of commitment to winning. Realistically the Bengals weren't going to do anything this year but without seeing the commitment to making meaningful changes, i.e. fixing the Oline and holding people accountable, then I don't see how Burrow doesn't look around and wonder if he did make a big mistake coming here. Enough talk from Zac/Duke, it's time for action, he's going to lose the team if he doesn't do something soon. Trade draft picks for an Oline asset, you've got to do something.

2. Zac and the coaches he brought in to surround him. Realistically Zac was just a guy with big talk, positive attitude, and pushing for change. Something that the Bengals desperately needed to revive the narrative around mediocre (at best) teams, thought process, and public image. He was nothing more than those things and the Bengals needed them after 16 years of Marv and Mike running things "old school". What is happening is the execution is not matching the theories, talk, and they're losing any credibility extremely quickly. Not because they losing but because of HOW they are losing. Zac is in way over his head, he doesn't have excellent coaches (other than Darrin) to make up for his inexperience that he can lean on. He's going to lose the team and fans if he doesn't try to make immediate changes. Not sure who he could get to come help out but they should be pulling out every trick in the bag to make it happen. Again, I'm not as concerned about wins as I am about improvements and building something for the next few years.

3. I gave Zac last year as a new HC, late start, didn't have his guys, etc. Hell I was prepared to give him this year too as long as there was actual commitment to change in execution, accountability, and not just talk. So far Zac has been nothing but a "paper tiger" (no pun intended, it's an actual phrase, google it), he has not backed up any of his talk about accountability. What he needs to be doing are revolutionary changes and not evolutionary. From his words/actions thus far he's stuck in the latter and that's not going to cut it to fix the Bengals problems. It's like the story of the chicken and the pig when talking about eggs and bacon for breakfast. Sure the chicken is involved but the pig is committed. We need a pig or we're going to be stuck in this misery all season. Be a pig Zac...be a pig.

End rant.

Most years, you can't tell much about a team based on the first week. This year I figured 2 weeks. After 3 weeks though, pretty clear this team is a disaster.

(09-27-2020, 11:37 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: My answers to Mike:

Not everyone wanted Taylor. Some thought hiring a position coach was a bad idea. Many wanted Bieniemy. Myself included.

Yes you spent money in FA but all on the defensive side of the ball. How could you, Tobin, and Taylor feel comfortable putting a rookie QB behind this OL?

It's worth remembering that the way Tobin and Taylor tackled the O-line in the off-season was to cut Cordy Glenn and John Miller. I know those two aren't great and that they weren't the answer but they had two of our best 3 grades on O-line according to PFF. We actually got weaker (and cheaper) at O-line than we were going into last season.

(09-28-2020, 02:16 AM)WestCoastBengalsFan Wrote: The only shot we have at winning in Oct is next weeks game at home against Jax. After that we have the Ravens, Colts, and Browns again. At this point I'm less concerned about wins and more concerned about the future. A few concerns/comments below:

1. Burrow not getting hurt or burnout on the lack of commitment to winning. Realistically the Bengals weren't going to do anything this year but without seeing the commitment to making meaningful changes, i.e. fixing the Oline and holding people accountable, then I don't see how Burrow doesn't look around and wonder if he did make a big mistake coming here. Enough talk from Zac/Duke, it's time for action, he's going to lose the team if he doesn't do something soon. Trade draft picks for an Oline asset, you've got to do something.

2. Zac and the coaches he brought in to surround him. Realistically Zac was just a guy with big talk, positive attitude, and pushing for change. Something that the Bengals desperately needed to revive the narrative around mediocre (at best) teams, thought process, and public image. He was nothing more than those things and the Bengals needed them after 16 years of Marv and Mike running things "old school". What is happening is the execution is not matching the theories, talk, and they're losing any credibility extremely quickly. Not because they losing but because of HOW they are losing. Zac is in way over his head, he doesn't have excellent coaches (other than Darrin) to make up for his inexperience that he can lean on. He's going to lose the team and fans if he doesn't try to make immediate changes. Not sure who he could get to come help out but they should be pulling out every trick in the bag to make it happen. Again, I'm not as concerned about wins as I am about improvements and building something for the next few years.

3. I gave Zac last year as a new HC, late start, didn't have his guys, etc. Hell I was prepared to give him this year too as long as there was actual commitment to change in execution, accountability, and not just talk. So far Zac has been nothing but a "paper tiger" (no pun intended, it's an actual phrase, google it), he has not backed up any of his talk about accountability. What he needs to be doing are revolutionary changes and not evolutionary. From his words/actions thus far he's stuck in the latter and that's not going to cut it to fix the Bengals problems. It's like the story of the chicken and the pig when talking about eggs and bacon for breakfast. Sure the chicken is involved but the pig is committed. We need a pig or we're going to be stuck in this misery all season. Be a pig Zac...be a pig.

End rant.

I don't think that is entirely accurate: Fred Johnson was benched mid-game yesterday; top ten pick John Ross was made inactive after offering nothing first two games; Preston Brown was cut midway through last season; the D was revamped in the off-season including major FA acquisitions in Reader and Waynes; he moved on from Dalton; all last year's free agent signings (Miller, Webb etc) were cut or not re-signed et cetera.

I'm confident that if he's Head Coach next year we'd see him do to the O-line what they did to the D last off-season. I'm not sure how much you can change an O-line before then (ie mid-season) though. Any street free-agent or trade isn't going to know the play-book and you'd have to query why they were available. Like personnel changes any coaching changes are likely to be in-house replacements.

The question is why wasn't this done in the off-season?

The second question is then are Duke Tobin and Zac Taylor the men to fix it?

Whoever signed off on this O line should be fired, we can go from there. As to firing everyone mid season, that is just a pipe dream. You can't fire a whole staff mid year, you can maybe get away with firing one person as a scape goat but most change will have to happen after the season.

(09-28-2020, 08:01 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: It's worth remembering that the way Tobin and Taylor tackled the O-line in the off-season was to cut Cordy Glenn and John Miller. I know those two aren't great and that they weren't the answer but they had two of our best 3 grades on O-line according to PFF. We actually got weaker (and cheaper) at O-line than we were going into last season.



I don't think that is entirely accurate: Fred Johnson was benched mid-game yesterday; top ten pick John Ross was made inactive after offering nothing first two games; Preston Brown was cut midway through last season; the D was revamped in the off-season including major FA acquisitions in Reader and Waynes; he moved on from Dalton; all last year's free agent signings (Miller, Webb etc) were cut or not re-signed et cetera.

I'm confident that if he's Head Coach next year we'd see him do to the O-line what they did to the D last off-season. I'm not sure how much you can change an O-line before then (ie mid-season) though. Any street free-agent or trade isn't going to know the play-book and you'd have to query why they were available. Like personnel changes any coaching changes are likely to be in-house replacements.

The question is why wasn't this done in the off-season?

The second question is then are Duke Tobin and Zac Taylor the men to fix it?

It wasn't done in the off-season because Turner convinced Zac/Tobin that they had the guys and he could make them all take a giant leap and Zac bought into it.


For your second question, Tobin has been really bad at picking Oline players for years now, Zac hasn't really addressed much as he's reliant of Turner, Zac has the rest of the team to worry about too. 

Let me clarify your other point about the changes Zac did make, i.e. Preston Brown, Ross, etc. What I'm saying above about the paper-tiger comment is that he has now had 3 weeks of real games to evaluate what's going on with the O-line, it's Monday afternoon and Turner still has a job. If the plan is to hold on for dear life until next season until any meaningful decisions are made then why keep the Turner for the rest of this year? Darrin Simmons is the most experience guy here and could easily fill in. Accountability matters right now before the season is lost and not just in off-season moves. You have good points about who would actually be available this season and would we even want those players/coaches anyway but something needs to be done to light a fire and show results matter. Get Tobin involved in the discussion too and make a trade of draft picks if necessary,  we have to get someone to protect Burrow. I hope we can agree that Burrow has the makings of a generational talent, why risk that in his first season? He's worth the investment in my opinion.

(09-28-2020, 04:43 PM)WestCoastBengalsFan Wrote: It wasn't done in the off-season because Turner convinced Zac/Tobin that they had the guys and he could make them all take a giant leap and Zac bought into it.


For your second question, Tobin has been really bad at picking Oline players for years now, Zac hasn't really addressed much as he's reliant of Turner, Zac has the rest of the team to worry about too. 

Let me clarify your other point about the changes Zac did make, i.e. Preston Brown, Ross, etc. What I'm saying above about the paper-tiger comment is that he has now had 3 weeks of real games to evaluate what's going on with the O-line, it's Monday afternoon and Turner still has a job. If the plan is to hold on for dear life until next season until any meaningful decisions are made then why keep the Turner for the rest of this year? Darrin Simmons is the most experience guy here and could easily fill in. Accountability matters right now before the season is lost and not just in off-season moves. You have good points about who would actually be available this season and would we even want those players/coaches anyway but something needs to be done to light a fire and show results matter. Get Tobin involved in the discussion too and make a trade of draft picks if necessary,  we have to get someone to protect Burrow. I hope we can agree that Burrow has the makings of a generational talent, why risk that in his first season? He's worth the investment in my opinion.

How do we know Turner convinced Tobin/Taylor?

I'm not sure former punter and life time Special Teams coach Simmons could be an O-line coach with no notice. Even if he could, it'll likely end up weakening special teams more than it improves the O-line.

The biggest issue at the moment is O-line and we're going to rely on someone who has been really bad at picking Oline players for years to fix it?
Change has to start with Tobin. 

(09-28-2020, 05:34 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: How do we know Turner convinced Tobin/Taylor?

I'm not sure former punter and life time Special Teams coach Simmons could be an O-line coach with no notice. Even if he could, it'll likely end up weakening special teams more than it improves the O-line.

The biggest issue at the moment is O-line and we're going to rely on someone who has been really bad at picking Oline players for years to fix it?
Change has to start with Tobin. 

I don't know for sure but I would be willing to bet that Turner was heavily involved in the discussion that the guys he has are just fine.

Lol ok referring to Darrin Simmons that way as if he's not qualified, there's a reason why he was elevated to assistant HC. That guy gets to see the talent of the entire football team and has been in the business for 20+ years, I'm sure he could fill in any role (included HC) very well especially in the Bengals organization. He could certainly fill the void just fine to make it through the rest of the season.

Tobin is who is sitting in the seat to fix the Oline from a personnel standpoint, he's Mikes guy that isn't going to change until probably when Mike Brown dies. He's not a piece one the chessboard that can be changed so you have to work with what you've got unfortunately. Since you're referencing that Tobin has to change I think what you're saying is unrealistic, I'm trying to suggest something that could actually happen right now.

(09-27-2020, 06:07 PM)Always a Bengal Wrote: that Zac Taylor is in over his head as a head coach. If the|Bengals go 0-6 he should be fired.

a kick and a catch and we are 2-1.. lol... we are in rebuild..  I remember in 2018 midway into season in Buffalo the call was to fire Mcdermott.. he had taken over a much better team than Bengals in 2017.. but 2018 was 2-7.. and the heat was on to fire him.. Bills stayed the course and look where they are.  Stay the course, have to have a young coach time with a rebuilding team...