(09-29-2020, 01:03 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: 2.) No one is saying it should have been his call.  But is it no crazy to think that he should have at least had some input and been involved in the discussion?

No it is not crazy at all.  Teams don't let OCs make the decisions on who the release or who they sign.  They don't "have a say" in those decisions.

Even head coaches complain about not getting to pick their own players.  So why would you think the OC would have any say in who the keep or cut?

How many times in the history of the NFL have your heard a coach in an interview say that one of his players is garbage and that the front office should replace him?  It just never happens.  Coaches get players and while they are on the team they try to support them.  That is what happened with Callahan. 

Non story. He was most likely aware this was coming at some point or at least a possibility. Maybe he didn’t have the exact details, but that’s all the FO’s job. Just because he didn’t make the announcement himself doesn’t mean he was out of the loop. As others have said, this is coach speak

(09-29-2020, 02:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No it is not crazy at all.  Teams don't let OCs make the decisions on who the release or who they sign.  They don't "have a say" in those decisions.

You don't know that's true for all of them.  You can't just make a statement like that, and represent it as pure fact.

I can almost guarantee you some OC have some input on personnel.  Like I said in my post, while they may not have final say, I'm sure some are involved in the discussion.

Also, I'm not surprised you side-stepped the third point I made, which said that even if you not buy into the previous points, nor believe that they should have involvement whatsoever, the team still needs to make them immediately aware.  Especially prior to an interview.

When you trot out your OC and it becomes public that the media knows more than he does about the current roster construction, that's a real bad look.

(09-29-2020, 02:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No it is not crazy at all.  Teams don't let OCs make the decisions on who the release or who they sign.  They don't "have a say" in those decisions.

I actually just thought of an example that completely disproves your statement.

Jay Gruden lobbied for Andy Dalton.  This fact was referenced a ton throughout the offseason he was drafted. Jay Gruden had a tremendous amount of input on this player. This is backed up by a handful of sources. In fact, it's often been rumored that he won over and talked the GM (Mike Brown) into takng him over Ryan Mallet.

So it turns out, some OC's do have input over personnel.

I rest my case.

This honestly sounds verbatim something Marvin would do. He knew, he just didn’t know the info was public so he had a little snark about it.

(09-29-2020, 03:04 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: You don't know that's true for all of them.  You can't just make a statement like that, and represent it as pure fact.

I can almost guarantee you some OC have some input on personnel.  Like I said in my post, while they may not have final say, I'm sure some are involved in the discussion.

Also, I'm not surprised you side-stepped the third point I made, which said that even if you not buy into the previous points, nor believe that they should have involvement whatsoever, the team still needs to make them immediately aware.  Especially prior to an interview.

When you trot out your OC and it becomes public that the media knows more than he does about the current roster construction, that's a real bad look.

At the very least let the OC know a decision has been or is about to be made on an offensive player being cut so you don't look like a fool during an interview.

Oh, for crying out loud, the shuffled some practice squad guys around. that's what FO's do....

(09-29-2020, 03:06 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I actually just thought of an example that completely disproves your statement.

Jay Gruden lobbied for Andy Dalton.  This fact was referenced a ton throughout the offseason he was drafted.  Jay Gruden had a tremendous amount of input on this player.  This is backed up by a handful of sources.  In fact, it's often been rumored that he won over and talked the GM (Mike Brown) into takng him over Ryan Mallet.

So it turns out, some OC's do have input over personnel.

I rest my case.

All you have to back up your claim is some vague rumors.  The fact that Gruden agreed with the front office does n ot prove that he had any input at all.

But if you want to talk about actual facts instead of rumors Marvin Lewis said ina press conference that Chris Henry would not play for the Bengal again after he got into more trouble while still suspended, but the front office brought him back anyway.

Wait, I thought Mike Brown made Lewis pay the players that made the most, instead of the better younger guys. Did we change back to coaches make personnel decisions again.... I can't keep up.

This backs up my thinking that Callahan isnt really our OC at all and never really has been. ZT is the OC in reality. Callahan is just an assistant coach, and obviously not a super important one when it comes to making decisions.

(09-29-2020, 11:11 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: He was literally released minutes before that question. Minutes.

It's not like he was released 5 hours prior and then he just found out about it.

The amount of nitpicky toxicity the past few days is starting to turn into what this place was last year...

Yeah, but Callahan obviously wasn't involved in the decision. I wonder how much input Callahan has in anything.

If I were firing one of my staff their boss would certainly know about it ahead of time and I certainly would not that without their boss wanting it to begin with.

 

(09-29-2020, 03:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: All you have to back up your claim is some vague rumors.  The fact that Gruden agreed with the front office does n ot prove that he had any input at all.

But if you want to talk about actual facts instead of rumors Marvin Lewis said ina press conference that Chris Henry would not play for the Bengal again after he got into more trouble while still suspended, but the front office brought him back anyway.

So, just to be clear, your postion is that Jay Gruden had "no say" in the Bengals selecting Andy Dalton?  Is that the hill you really want to die on?

Is Andy Dalton a "vague source"?  Directly from the horses mouth (Andy Dalton in 2016)...

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“A big reason why I’m here is because of Jay,” Dalton said. “You can’t take that away from him. I’m fortunate he was here and wanted me. From that, I felt like I grew a lot as a player in the three years I was with him. He allowed me a lot of freedom at the line of scrimmage, allowed me to do a lot of stuff. I said last week that Hue did a lot to get me to where I am, but Jay had a lot to do with that as well.”
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Here's an Adam Schefter from the year he was drafted.  The guy is generally known as one of the most accurate reporters on league matters.  He's hardly a vague source, that would resemble message board rumors.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During ESPN's Sunday NFL Countdown, NFL Insider Adam Schefter reported that Cincinnati Bengals president and owner and general manager Mike Brown favored Arkansas quarterback Ryan Mallett during the 2011 NFL Draft. Schefter reported that the Bengals coaching staff, specifically offensive coordinator Jay Gruden, were "instrumental" in convincing Brown to take TCU quarterback Andy Dalton over Mallett, which eventually the team did.


If you think you've heard this story before, you have.

Roughly around the 2011 NFL Draft, the same ESPN NFL Insider reported that Brown wanted to draft Mallett, but was convinced by the coaches to select Dalton. So we're not sure why the same story is being rehashed six months later, other than specifically pointing out Gruden's involvement; though that was also pointed out in April.

The larger significance Bengals fans should take from this is that Brown is allowing much more knowledgeable personnel, such as the coaching staff, convince him on how to build the team with personnel they favor. As Marvin Lewis always says, "that's a good thing."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(09-29-2020, 02:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No it is not crazy at all.  Teams don't let OCs make the decisions on who the release or who they sign.  They don't "have a say" in those decisions.

Even head coaches complain about not getting to pick their own players.  So why would you think the OC would have any say in who the keep or cut?

How many times in the history of the NFL have your heard a coach in an interview say that one of his players is garbage and that the front office should replace him?  It just never happens.  Coaches get players and while they are on the team they try to support them.  That is what happened with Callahan. 

Taking or signing players the coaching staff doesn't want or letting players go that the coaches want around is bad management. We've seen it multiple times with the Bengals. I can't recall it turning out all that well.

John Ross is a clear example. Low-balling Whit is another example. Not that this Calhoun is any kind of a mistake either way as the Ross and Whit cases were.

 

I remember watching "Hard Knocks" when the Bengals were featured the two times they did the show. If I remember correctly, when most decisions were made there would be a round table discussion and everyone's input was encouraged. I'm sure the final decisions were up to Mike Brown, Duke Tobin, and at the time, Marvin Lewis but Mike Brown listened to his coaches and had taken their viewpoints into consideration.

I don't know how the decision process plays out now or how much Mike Brown is still involved with the decision process. I just think the cutting of Calhoun, while not a big deal, should've warranted at least a heads up to the OC.

BTW Mr. Toast, I remember when Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis had a tiff over Chris Henry. Marvin said it was one of the few times he and Mike Brown had a disagreement over anything during his time here. I know they also had a disagreement when it came to an indoor practice facility, Lewis being for one and Brown being against it.

(09-29-2020, 03:04 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: You don't know that's true for all of them.  You can't just make a statement like that, and represent it as pure fact.

I can almost guarantee you some OC have some input on personnel.  Like I said in my post, while they may not have final say, I'm sure some are involved in the discussion.

Also, I'm not surprised you side-stepped the third point I made, which said that even if you not buy into the previous points, nor believe that they should have involvement whatsoever, the team still needs to make them immediately aware.  Especially prior to an interview.

When you trot out your OC and it becomes public that the media knows more than he does about the current roster construction, that's a real bad look.

Actually yes, the OC has no say on the OL. That is the job of the Line coach and the HC. Not sure why your getting all worked up, Calhoun wasn't even going to sniff the field.  He's back on the PS btw. 

(09-29-2020, 04:41 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So, just to be clear, your postion is that Jay Gruden had "no say" in the Bengals selecting Andy Dalton?  Is that the hill you really want to die on?

Is Andy Dalton a "vague source"?  Directly from the horses mouth (Andy Dalton in 2016)...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“A big reason why I’m here is because of Jay,” Dalton said. “You can’t take that away from him. I’m fortunate he was here and wanted me. From that, I felt like I grew a lot as a player in the three years I was with him. He allowed me a lot of freedom at the line of scrimmage, allowed me to do a lot of stuff. I said last week that Hue did a lot to get me to where I am, but Jay had a lot to do with that as well.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's an Adam Schefter from the year he was drafted.  The guy is generally known as one of the most accurate reporters on league matters.  He's hardly a vague source, that would resemble message board rumors.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During ESPN's Sunday NFL Countdown, NFL Insider Adam Schefter reported that Cincinnati Bengals president and owner and general manager Mike Brown favored Arkansas quarterback Ryan Mallett during the 2011 NFL Draft. Schefter reported that the Bengals coaching staff, specifically offensive coordinator Jay Gruden, were "instrumental" in convincing Brown to take TCU quarterback Andy Dalton over Mallett, which eventually the team did.


If you think you've heard this story before, you have.

Roughly around the 2011 NFL Draft, the same ESPN NFL Insider reported that Brown wanted to draft Mallett, but was convinced by the coaches to select Dalton. So we're not sure why the same story is being rehashed six months later, other than specifically pointing out Gruden's involvement; though that was also pointed out in April.

The larger significance Bengals fans should take from this is that Brown is allowing much more knowledgeable personnel, such as the coaching staff, convince him on how to build the team with personnel they favor. As Marvin Lewis always says, "that's a good thing."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course the OC should select the guy that is going to run his offense.....FFS

In the near future:

Reporter to Callahan: How do you feel about getting fired today?
Callahan: What? When? I was?

Why is this a big deal?

I own a company. I have let employees go over the years and then told their supervisor of it afterwards. And if I'm letting someone go, it's based on what has been relayed to me by his foremen.

Obviously, if they were letting him go, that meant they had no plans for him(and it really makes me shudder to think how bad he must be) and the FO got that information from the coaches.

(09-29-2020, 11:31 AM)Sled21 Wrote: It's not like Calhoun was a player getting playing time, he was a back of the roster guy that they just moved to move someone else. For crying out loud, it's not like they cut Hopkins....

I find it very sad that so many people don't understand what the problem is here. Hint: It has nothing to do with Lawson's value or lack thereof.