I'm seeing a lot of talk about how it's a forgone conclusion that Zac Taylor will get a 3rd year. I've seen explanations range from team history (Dave Shula getting 5 years) to coaches getting 2 years with 1st round QB's.

In any other time I might agree with a lot of these points made, and think the chances of us are moving on are slim to none. But there is something very different about the time we're currently in....

The Stadium lease renewal. For those that don't know, the lease on PBS with the county ends in 2026. (There are potential extensions and particulars, but we're still nearing a very important date) At that time, any county funds will cease being made to the Bengals for upgrades and matenance. Hamilton County and the Bengals have until then to come to agreement on how to proceed.

Some of you might be thinking, 2026 is awhile away, it's only 2020. Well, the county and the team are expected to begin formal talks in 2022. 2022 is only 14 months away.

Without going into too much crazy detail, just now a couple things. The county isn't in the best of shape right now as far finances. The two stadiums (PBS + GAB) won't be paid off until 2032. The current .05 levy is expected to continue for pretty much forever. We also just committed 1.2 BILLION dollars to a transportation levy, that runs for, I think, 12 years.

What this means is simple. The county isn't sitting on a mountain of cash. Nor can they easily gain support for additional taxes. Hamilton County is now one of the highest taxed counties in the entire state.

So all of this means the Bengals really need to present themselves in the very best light possible. The better product they have, the stronger their leverage. If they continue to roll out the product they are, they're going to be really hurting themselves.

And if you think the answer is, "well, the Bengals will just leave if the county can't be meet their demands", this could very well be true. But the same logic applies to negotiations with other cities. The better their team performs the more leverage they can use.

No one wants to go into negotiations with a bottom of the barrel franchise.

The average cost for rennovating and upgrading aging stadiums, in these type of deals, is 214 million dollars. The average cost for new stadiums is creeping pasy 1 BILLION. This means there are hundreds of millions to past billion dollars at stake.

What does Mike Brown and his family take very seriously, maybe more than anything else? Money. And there's a lot of money on the line.

So when you consider all of the above, and couple it with simple pride and 30 years of proven failure, I think you may see this team operate differently from their previous norm. And I actually believe this played a big hand in what we saw in free agency. Now is not the time to be stubborn.

This team desperately needs fan support. They need the city's support. The last thing they want is a half empty stadium to continue to be a reality going into all of this. And unfortuanately for them, the excitment that is Joe Burrow's first year, which would drive ticket sales, is lost to Covid.

I hope I didn't bore anyone to death with this. I think it's a very valid angle to consider.

I honestly wish they would move to St.Louis because I can't seem to quit watching them as long as they are here. (Bad Habit)

52 years and 5 PO wins/0 in last 30 years and counting with no light in sight.

It feels like it is over for the Bengals in Cincy.

And I don't care anymore.

(10-21-2020, 01:49 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: What does Mike Brown and his family take very seriously, maybe more than anything else?  Money.  And there's a lot of money on the line.

So when you consider all of the above, with simple pride and 30 years of proven failure, I think you may see this team operate differently from the norm.  And I actually believe this played a big hand in what we saw in free agency.  Now is not the time to be stubborn.

This team desperately needs fan support.  They need the city's support.  The last thing they want is a half empty stadium to continue to be a reality going into all of this.  And unfortuanately for them, the excitment that is Joe Burrow's first year, which would drive ticket sales, is lost to Covid.

I hope I didn't bore anyone to death with this.  I think it's a very valid angle to consider.

This post isn't boring at all.  It's a great post, well researched, very timely, and highly relevant to the Bengals' poor performance since 2016.  Putting butts in seats solves many issues and no one wants to pay good money to watch a horrible team.  I still don't understand how fans of the Cleveland Browns have been so loyal since the 1960s but that's a different thread; we're talking Cincinnati here.

The OP is right; the old model clearly isn't working.  It hasn't worked for thirty years.  I think Mikey Boy wants to win but he doesn't know how to win.  The P-51 Mustang was once the greatest fighter plane in the air but I wouldn't go to war in one now.  Similarly, pocket passers are deadly weapons with good pass protection but sitting ducks without it.  I'm sick of the Front Office excuse about a new quarterback needing time to "cut his teeth," for example or not addressing the horrible offensive line.

Something may change and it is highly likely the Bengals will go into the bye week 1-6-1 which will give Zac Taylor a head coaching record of 3-20-1.  He's not the solution.  He's not going to be the solution.  The Front Office needs to cut bait and try again now, not at the end of the season.  Even interim coaches and coordinators who won't be retained after the season would be better than this.  I truly hope the Front Office cleans house with respect to the coaches and coordinators during the bye week, becomes super aggressive before the 3 November trade deadline, and just gives SW Ohio a reason to believe they care. 

(10-21-2020, 01:49 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm seeing a lot of talk about how it's a forgone conclusion that Zac Taylor will get a 3rd year.  I've seen explanations range from team history (Dave Shula getting 5 years) to coaches getting 2 years with 1st round QB's.

In any other time I might agree with a lot of these points made, and think the chances of us are moving on are slim to none.  But there is something very different about the time we're currently in....

The Stadium lease renewal.  For those that don't know, the lease on PBS with the county ends in 2026. (There are potential extensions and particulars, but we're still nearing a very important date)  At that time, any county funds will cease being made to the Bengals for upgrades and matenance.  Hamilton County and the Bengals have until then to come to agreement on how to proceed.

Some of you might be thinking, 2026 is awhile away, it's only 2020.  Well, the county and the team are expected to begin formal talks in 2022.  2022 is only 14 months away.

Without going into too much crazy detail, just now a couple things.  The county isn't in the best of shape right now as far finances.  The two stadiums (PBS + GAB) won't be paid off until 2032.  The current .05 levy is expected to continue for pretty much forever.  We also just committed 1.2 BILLION dollars to a transportation levy, that runs for, I think, 12 years.

What this means is simple.  The county isn't sitting on a mountain of cash.  Nor can they easily gain support for additional taxes.  Hamilton County is now one of the highest taxed counties in the entire state.

So all of this means the Bengals really need to present themselves in the very best light possible.  The better product they have, the stronger their leverage.  If they continue to roll out the product they are, they're going to be really hurting themselves.

And if you think the answer is, "well, the Bengals will just leave if the county can't be meet their demands", this could very well be true.  But the same logic applies to negotiations with other cities.  The better their team performs the more leverage they can use.  

No one wants to go into negotiations with a bottom of the barrel franchise.

The average cost for rennovating and upgrading aging stadiums, in these type of deals, is 214 million dollars.  The average cost for new stadiums is creeping pasy 1 BILLION.  This means there are hundreds of millions to past billion dollars at stake.

What does Mike Brown and his family take very seriously, maybe more than anything else?  Money.  And there's a lot of money on the line.

So when you consider all of the above, and couple it with simple pride and 30 years of proven failure, I think you may see this team operate differently from their previous norm.  And I actually believe this played a big hand in what we saw in free agency.  Now is not the time to be stubborn.

This team desperately needs fan support.  They need the city's support.  The last thing they want is a half empty stadium to continue to be a reality going into all of this.  And unfortuanately for them, the excitment that is Joe Burrow's first year, which would drive ticket sales, is lost to Covid.

I hope I didn't bore anyone to death with this.  I think it's a very valid angle to consider.

TY for taking the time to do this, it helps me comprehend better the financial ramifications on both city/county and team.

Sadly, I do not think any owner of any professional sports team should need reasons to win. I hate losing, I wish the Brown family did as well.

Columbus or Stlouis make the most sense based on division. Face the fact they are moving in 2026 regardless.

(10-21-2020, 02:17 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Columbus or Stlouis make the most sense based on division. Face the fact they are moving in 2026 regardless.

I'd probably still passionately follow them if they were the Columbus Bengals. St. Louis, I think my Bengal-days would be over.

I dont think they will move if MB is alive. His Dad built this and his name is on the stadium. If he moves his Dads name comes down and what he built goes away. Also MB hates and I mean hates change.

(10-21-2020, 02:17 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Columbus or Stlouis make the most sense based on division. Face the fact they are moving in 2026 regardless.

It wouldn't work in Columbus. Over 50% of the city are fans of CLE. About 25% are PIT fans. Only about 25% (or less) are fans of the Bengals.
Although maybe some fans would drive from CIN/DAY to attend the games.

(10-21-2020, 02:17 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Columbus or Stlouis make the most sense based on division. Face the fact they are moving in 2026 regardless.

Columbus makes absolutely zero sense.  In fact, I'd give anyone 100-1 to odds that Bengals moved to Europe before they moved to Columbus. 

St. Louis can definitely support an NFL team, but you have to remember there was a reason they left.  The city could not afford to finance a new stadium, and/or they simply chose not to.

That all played at only 5 years ago.  What has changed in that city, where they'd now be willing to finance a billion dollar stadium?  I can remember reading articles when the Rams left that many consider it ultimately to be a win for the city.  The money just isn't there.

The only way a team ends up St. Louis, IMHO, is if new ownership privately finances it.  Or at least the majority of it.  If the Bengals went there that would mean the Browns selling the franchise, and someone else building it there.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume they're moving regardless.  The fact of the matter is the Brown family has enjoyed one of, if not the greatest stadium deals in history.  They worked over the county (and it's tax payers) pretty good.  I have to assume they will consider this going into future negotiations.

There's many things I accuse Mike and his family of, I'm one of the harshest  critics.  But I don't think they're evil people.  Holding the county hostage, only to pick up and move would be almost be an evil act. 

After everything this town has given them, and with what little they've given back, to pack up and move, only for a shiny new stadium, that is not something that I think is in their character.

Mike values loyalty, and Mike is set in his ways.  This town has been more than loyal, and Cincinnati is his famiy's home.  I wouldn't be so quick to discount these two simple realites.

Doesn't Mike have to give somebody an opportunity to buy the team before he could relocate?

(10-21-2020, 02:04 PM)Atomic Orange Wrote: I honestly wish they would move to St.Louis because I can't seem to quit watching them as long as they are here. (Bad Habit)

52 years and 5 PO wins/0 in last 30 years and counting with no light in sight.

It feels like it is over for the Bengals in Cincy.

And I don't care anymore.

I'm beginning to feel the same way. It's been horrible since we lost Paul. It's no coincidence that we haven't been able sign a real coaching staff since Sam. I give Marvin credit for doing his best to hang in there under the circumstances.

The stadium was empty last year and the front office just spent $145 million in free agency. Things have changed. The Brown family loves their money, and when they spend that much they are not going to waste another year on a coach who can't do anything with it.

I give Taylor the rest of the season, but unless he pulls a miraculous turn around (not just beating a few bad teams) he will be gone.

(10-21-2020, 03:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The stadium was empty last year and the front office just spent $145 million in free agency.  Things have changed.  The Brown family loves their money, and when they spend that much they are not going to waste another year on a coach who can't do anything with it.  

I give Taylor the rest of the season, but unless he pulls a miraculous turn around (not just beating a few bad teams) he will be gone.

I hope you're right.

I don't see st. Louis or Columbus as viable landing spots.
St. Louis can't support 2 teams
Columbus has ohio state, too much competition
Milwaukee too much competition between bears, Vikings and packers

Portland, OR
Tulsa/OKC
San Antonio

Outside shots
San Diego
Oakland
Mexico city
Along with jax, a cornerstone for a European division?

That's about all I have.

I just don't understand Mike B Philosophy. I know he loves money, but does he not understand the better the product on the field is, more people will come down and watch which means even more money in is pocket.

(10-21-2020, 03:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The stadium was empty last year and the front office just spent $145 million in free agency.  Things have changed.  The Brown family loves their money, and when they spend that much they are not going to waste another year on a coach who can't do anything with it.  

I give Taylor the rest of the season, but unless he pulls a miraculous turn around (not just beating a few bad teams) he will be gone.

If Zac wins at least 3 of the final 10 games, it all but guarantees he'll be back for 2021. Mike will see that as progress.

(10-21-2020, 03:51 PM)Reinhardt23 Wrote: I just don't understand Mike B Philosophy.  I know he loves money, but does he not understand the better the product on the field is, more people will come down and watch which means even more money in is pocket.

Actually he does understand this.

That is the ONLY reason he spent $145 million in free agency this last offseason.

(10-21-2020, 04:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: If Zac wins at least 3 of the final 10 games, it all but guarantees he'll be back for 2021. Mike will see that as progress.

I disagree.  he only gave Dick Lebeau two drafts and offseasons to build a winner.  I don't see what he would give Zac more than that with just 7 wins in 2 seasons.

If a coach can't improve a team with the addition of two first round picks and an $18 million WR on offense and five new free agent starters on defense then it is time to move on.

(10-21-2020, 04:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I disagree.  he only gave Dick Lebeau two drafts and offseasons to build a winner.  I don't see what he would give Zac more than that with just 7 wins in 2 seasons.

If a coach can't improve a team with the addition of two first round picks and an $18 million WR on offense and five new free agent starters on defense then it is time to move on.

With the LeBeau, his contract had expired and they were in the midst of huge public / media uproar calling for change. It made the situation very easy on Mike. He didn't have to 'fire' the HC and he could simply move onto the search for a new coach, while looking like he was appeasing the fan base at the same time.

This situation is different. Zac is under contract, and they have gone all-in on him. The huge free agency doesn't happen without Zac. This front office has never believed in spending big in free agency...until Zac. As Mike said about him...'He loves ideas. He can present them in a way that works. People accept what he says'. 

I believe they are going to give Zac every opportunity to ride this out and see where it goes.

(10-21-2020, 04:36 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: This situation is different. Zac is under contract,

I don't see how that makes any difference at all.  Marvin was under contract and they fired him after winning 6 games.

They know that if Taylor just wins 4 games this year PBS will be empty next season.

They also know it will be hard to sign free agents to work under a coach with 7 wins in two seasons and zero respect form his players.  You think he has problems with vets speaking out now.  Just wait until he ends this season with a 7-24-1 record.