(10-29-2020, 02:12 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Fred evidently thinks the veterans should play regardless of if they are giving any effort or not. He would have been great on Marvin's staff.

I think the most productive players should play.

(10-29-2020, 01:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't know how that is what you got out of the story.

Zac and Lou wanted to get rid of a DE who was one of the best at his position over the last half of last year when he got healthy.  Front office overruled Zac and Lou.  Zac and Lou responded by benching Dunlap in order to make him look bad.

Lou wants to coach like an authoritarian, but he has done nothing to earn the respect of veterans.  That will always be a problem.

Anyone who ever had a clueless boss who gets petty when fails will understand.

Sounds a little reminiscent of the Josh McDaniels/Denver fiasco.

(10-29-2020, 02:06 PM)Whatever Wrote: When was this?  Dunlap has a 53 PFF grade.  Kareem has a 60+ grade.  Hunt came in off the street and posted a 57 against the Browns.

PFF grades are a joke.

Look at actual production like sacks, QB hits, TFL , etc.

Who cares he didn’t want to be here the tape showed that so they moved him.

I’m ok with it. We didn’t get Dunlop f old, we got to watch the cry baby ***** Dunlop. Bye.

(10-29-2020, 02:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think the most productive players should play.

No one, including Carlos, has been very effective on the dline. Hubbard flashed a little, and Lawson has brought some heat, but not consistently enough. Geno is hurt, Reader out...

(10-29-2020, 02:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually I have noticed that Darius Phillips and Shawn Williams have also complained publicly about "wasting talent".

Multiple sources have said Atkins is frustrated, but the Bengals are just lucky that Geno NEVER talks about anything.

The podcast plainly stated that Atkins was approached about limiting snaps due to his injury. Dehner said that he actually needs surgery, but is trying to play through it rather than miss the season. Those sources are speculating....at least the ones I've read are... because as you say, Geno never talks. How would they know?

(10-29-2020, 02:05 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Anybody kind enough to give me a time stamp to some of the relevant stuff?

John spoke with Carlos's dad and they highlighted the following:

• Didn't respect Lou, thought he was incompetent, upset they spent a lot of money of D players but not D Coord 
• Lou is very authoritative, his way or you don't play, doesn't really take advice from veterans
• They discussed how they're planning to use him, but wasn't as authentic as with Geno, 
• found out about demotion on white board leading up to week 5
• Every since beginning of year they've been trying to offload Dunlap
• ZT "essentially" (said he couldn't say exactly what he said) but he wanted Dunlap off the team (he made it sound like he said that in front of other players as well)
• Front office did not want to trade dunlap, so ZT devalued his value by benching him for the sake of changing their mind (this is f**in awful, awful)
• The Browns game Dunlap confronted Lou about shitty playcalling/personal, Lou cursed him out, so forth and so on
• Originally wanted to trade to Lions, Dunlap said no. Dunlap paid 5 million back to not go to Lions
  

(10-29-2020, 02:23 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So, I just listened to section where the guy goes over what Dunlap Sr. said.

If any of this is true then it just speaks to just how terrible our front office is.  Disfunctional is the perfect decription.

We had our coaching staff bench a player to devalue him so much that they would force the FO to part ways?  We intentioanlly tanked his trade value just so we'd forced to trade him?  I mean, what????????????

I take all of this with a grain of salt because of the source, but the entire saga shows disfunction.  He should've been traded last year.  And if there was any question from the staff about his role going into the season then he should've been traded/cut in the offseason.  Yet we let it reach such a boiling point that we have no other option to ship him off for peanuts, all the while wasting cap space that could have bettered this team in 2020.

Man, do I hate this team sometimes.  The way this entire situation played out is absolutely ridiculous.

Pretty much what my paragraph above states. FOs stubbornness strikes again. If something isn't a fit, don't force it. I'm holding them accountable here, not Los or the coaches. They didn't jive, so move on. They probably could have gotten a good return in a 2-14 season. 

(10-29-2020, 02:33 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: John spoke with Carlos's dad and they highlighted the following:

• Didn't respect Lou, thought he was incompetent, upset they spent a lot of money of D players but not D Coord 
• Lou is very authoritative, his way or you don't, doesn't really take advice from veterans
• They discussed how they're planning to use him, but wasn't as authentic as with Geno, 
• found out about demotion on white board leading up to week 5
• Every since beginning of year they've been trying to offload Dunlap
• ZT "essentially" (said he couldn't say exactly what he said) but he wanted Dunlap off the team (he made it sound like he said that in front of other players as well)
• Front office did not want to trade dunlap, so ZT devalued his value by benching him for the sake of changing their mind (this is f**in awful, awful)
• The Browns game Dunlap confronted Lou about shitty playcalling/personal, Lou cursed him out, so forth and so on
• Originally wanted to trade to Lions, Dunlap said no. Dunlap paid 5 million back to not go to Lions
  

Good work!

(10-29-2020, 02:23 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So, I just listened to section where the guy goes over what Dunlap Sr. said.

If any of this is true then it just speaks to just how terrible our front office is.  Disfunctional is the perfect decription.

We had our coaching staff bench a player to devalue him so much that they would force the FO to part ways?  We intentioanlly tanked his trade value just so we'd forced to trade him?  I mean, what????????????

I take all of this with a grain of salt because of the source, but the entire saga shows disfunction.  He should've been traded last year.  And if there was any question from the staff about his role going into the season then he should've been traded/cut in the offseason.  Yet we let it reach such a boiling point that we have no other option to ship him off for peanuts, all the while wasting cap space that could have bettered this team in 2020.

Man, do I hate this team sometimes.  The way this entire situation played out is absolutely ridiculous.

I knew the FO wasn't very good... but wtf are they doing not wanting to trade a player that the HC and DC clearly didn't want. Zach had to go out of his way to ensure he was cut/traded. This is f***in incompetence at the highest level. Not to many things surprise me with this FO, but that statement did. 

(10-29-2020, 02:04 PM)Wyche Wrote: So....in summation, the stubbornness of the FO led to all of this. All they had to do was move him last year, and non e of this happens. Yojimbo, take a bow, you were correct. Posting rotation and depth chart was still Bush League, but the rest of it does now have some merit. When things change, and someone can't, or won't adapt, you move on from one party or the other. So, you either fire the DC, or move the player in this instance. Common sense.

 I was voting hard for this....

(10-29-2020, 02:33 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: John spoke with Carlos's dad and they highlighted the following:

• Didn't respect Lou, thought he was incompetent, upset they spent a lot of money of D players but not D Coord 
• Lou is very authoritative, his way or you don't play, doesn't really take advice from veterans
• They discussed how they're planning to use him, but wasn't as authentic as with Geno, 
• found out about demotion on white board leading up to week 5
• Every since beginning of year they've been trying to offload Dunlap
• ZT "essentially" (said he couldn't say exactly what he said) but he wanted Dunlap off the team (he made it sound like he said that in front of other players as well)
• Front office did not want to trade dunlap, so ZT devalued his value by benching him for the sake of changing their mind (this is f**in awful, awful)
• The Browns game Dunlap confronted Lou about shitty playcalling/personal, Lou cursed him out, so forth and so on
• Originally wanted to trade to Lions, Dunlap said no. Dunlap paid 5 million back to not go to Lions
  

The no advice from veterans is not a good look.

I thought they said he was *willing* to forego the 5 mil, but ultimately didn't have to because of the trade. I also took it that both player and coaches approached FO last year about a trade, and FO said no.

The story here is the big disconnect between the coaching staff and the Front Office.

Mike Brown's tribute to Dunlap (when was the last time he spoke during a season?) only emphasizes it further.

Has such a move weakened Taylor by falling out with a player the ever loyal Mike Brown thinks of fondly? Or does Mike Brown see Dunlap's subsequent lack of effort as vindicating the coaching staff's wishes to move him on over the summer?

Will be interesting to see who is Team Zac and who is Team Mike Brown on here....

(10-29-2020, 02:42 PM)JSR18 Wrote:  I was voting hard for this....

I'm on board...lol. This may wind up a good thing all around, except we could've gotten a much better return last year for 96. I say that because it might just cost Lou his job, got a little help on oline, moved a disgruntled player, and a draft pick.

(10-29-2020, 02:36 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: I knew the FO wasn't very good... but wtf are they doing not wanting to trade a player that the HC and DC clearly didn't want. Zach had to go out of his way to ensure he was cut/traded. This is f***in incompetence at the highest level. Not to many things surprise me with this FO, but that statement did. 

Yep, AND the player wanted out. That was stupid even for MB.

(10-29-2020, 01:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't know how that is what you got out of the story.

Zac and Lou wanted to get rid of a DE who was one of the best at his position over the last half of last year when he got healthy.  Front office overruled Zac and Lou.  Zac and Lou responded by benching Dunlap in order to make him look bad.

Lou wants to coach like an authoritarian, but he has done nothing to earn the respect of veterans.  That will always be a problem.

Anyone who ever had a clueless boss who gets petty when fails will understand.

Fred is spot on!

Yojimbo and I both tried our best to exp!ain the scenario and how it played out. Doesn't mean that we like how Carlos handled it. Certainly not over the moon about how the FO handled it.

Ts, we get an interior lineman (needed) and a 7th (Hail Mary player). Seattle's defense just got better.

Lou needs to go. 

I suspect that with the many, many needs on the roster this past offseason, the FO didn't see any viable way to replace their best pass rusher. The top end of the draft was going to Burrow and some sort of compliment to him, ie o-line or WR. Good prime-age DEs are among the most expensive of position players in free agency. Carlos was the default option.

I'm not overly impressed with Dunlap's'behavior over the last few weeks, but I still fault Anarumo and the staff. Anarumo is the definition of a never-will-be in this league. He's been a position coach on a bunch of shitty defenses, and he got this job because he happened to be the eleventh (eleventh. let that sink in) option on the team's list during a thoroughly humiliating DC search in 2019. His performance has been commensurate with his bottom-of-the-barrel hiring.

Front offices build rosters, but coaches must take what the FO gives them and get the most out of it. It's all ego garbage, and IMO it's on Lou's behalf, not Carlos. It's a major reason that coaches fail in this league. They are so arrogant about their precious "system" and an imperative to adhere to it, that they fail to utilize the talents of players they have that can be productive with tweaks. Sitting a player that has been productive as recently as late last season because he doesn't fit your system is moronic, particularly when you have very little else in terms of pass-rush talent on your roster.

I look at it like this: My boss spends money on a new operating system at work that they have used in the past and think highly of. I think it's dumb and don't like that it changes my routine. I then proceed to sabotage with intent, then blame the new system for my failures and demand that they get rid of it.

Lou is garbage. He needs to be run out of town at the bye.

Once again, the Brown family has actually made me feel sorry for coaches who are making milions of dollars.

I may not be the world's biggest Zac or Lou fan, but I actually might need to rethink that a bit. If they're not given the opportunity to properly do their jobs then how can I hold them accountable?

If this shit is true then who knows what other decisions they've been left out of, or what suggestions/demands have been completely shut down. For all we know this team could look drastically different had their opinions and plans been realized.

I really wish I didn't listen to that or click this thread. I have enough anger towards this family. When the frack will they ever learn to just step aside and shut the hell up on football decisions?

(10-29-2020, 02:58 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Once again, the Brown family has actually made me feel sorry for coaches who are making milions of dollars.

I may not be the world's biggest Zac or Lou fan, but I actually might need to rethink that a bit.  If they're not given the opportunity to properly do their jobs then how can I hold them accountable?

If this shit is true then who knows what other decisions they've been left out of, or what suggestions/demands have been completely shut down.  For all we know this team could look drastically different had their opinions and plans been realized.

I really wish I didn't listen to that or click this thread.  I have enough anger towards this family.  When the frack will they ever learn to just step aside and shut the hell up on football decisions?

I'm in the same boat, and I'd still like to see Lou canned. That said, this is akin to keeping Andy Dalton this off-season. Why? You are being told that this guy isn't a good fit, the player says he isn't a good fit, but you keep him anyway because of the contract. Stupid.

(10-29-2020, 02:36 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: I knew the FO wasn't very good... but wtf are they doing not wanting to trade a player that the HC and DC clearly didn't want. 

Dunlap played like one of the best DEs in the league over the second half of last season.  The front office probably thought it was dumb as hell to get rid of a guy who was producing just because the coaches don't like him personally.

That is why coaches usually aren't GMs.  GMs get talented players and the coaches have to use them properly.

Some fans accuse Dunlap of intentionally underperforming to get his way, but it looks like the coaches did the exact same thing.  They played inferior players just to try and get their way.