(11-02-2020, 03:22 PM)Au165 Wrote: I was a big driver of the "Tate needs more reps" narrative in the offseason. The big thing you get with him is the contested catching ability. When we look at what Baltimore did to us, blitz everyone and leave their guys on an island, you realize Burrow needs an outlet at times to just throw it up and trust that the 50/50 ball is really like and 80/20. I think going forward he needs to be on the field with Higgins and Boyd more as he will get his one on one matchups against 2nd and 3rd corners and we should see more of what we have seen, really solid play.

Also, who in the world doesn't know that a big receiver with a large catch radius and great hands is the type of receiver you want in the redzone?

And not just for dumbass fades. 

(11-02-2020, 05:08 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Also, who in the world doesn't know that a big receiver with a large catch radius and great hands is the type of receiver you want in the redzone?

And not just for dumbass fades. 

I'd like to see more smash concepts in the red zone with him running the corner out of the slot, or a bench concept from a stack set. Similar ball placement to the fade on the corner but it gives him a better path to the ball and less chance of getting squeezed out of bounds.

I thing about fade routes is that they are not really 50/50 balls
More like 30/70. That boundry line is really like a extra man.
Why even attempt that low % of a throw
When there is higher % throw and catch in the route tree.Tate can run more than a fade route trust me

(11-02-2020, 05:15 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I thing about fade routes is that they are not  really 50/50 balls
More like 30/70. That boundry line is really like a extra man.
Why even attempt that low % of a throw
When there is higher % throw and catch in the route tree.Tate can run more than a fade route trust me

The reason they get thrown is they are low risk. When you work through the middle of the field in the red zone things get tighter and there are more chances for turnovers, think the tipped INT versus Cleveland. I don't like the traditional fade as much as the back-shoulder fade from a tighter split, this is something Tate would excel at plus it gives more room. The only downside here is if you are late it can get pick sixed.

Run Tate in a mesh formation. Turn catch get one block then
He can walk or break a tackle on route inside the 10.
The Titans had issues with Tate all.day after the catch

(11-02-2020, 05:15 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I thing about fade routes is that they are not  really 50/50 balls
More like 30/70. That boundry line is really like a extra man.
Why even attempt that low % of a throw
When there is higher % throw and catch in the route tree.Tate can run more than a fade route trust me

But people say Tate turns 50/50 balls into 80/20 balls, so shouldn't he turn 30/70 balls into 60/40 balls?

(11-02-2020, 05:15 PM)Au165 Wrote: I'd like to see more smash concepts in the red zone with him running the corner out of the slot, or a bench concept from a stack set. Similar ball placement to the fade on the corner but it gives him a better path to the ball and less chance of getting squeezed out of bounds.

Smash, Dagger and seam, i think, he would excel at. I prefer the in-breaking routes though because it requires a lower level of difficulty--not needing to twist or contort so much and it makes it easier to use his body to shield a defender. 

(11-02-2020, 05:24 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Smash, Dagger and seam, i think, he would excel at. I prefer the in-breaking routes though because it requires a lower level of difficulty--not needing to twist or contort so much and it makes it easier to use his body to shield a defender. 

To me it's about the concept. If you want to set him up in a Nasty Split opposite trips to the wide side and run a back-shoulder fade in isolation I am all about it because of his catch radius and jumping ability. Everyone will expect the slant flat pick play to the trips side that is popular right now.

I noticed Gio.and Auden were running that similar flat route toward the sideline .Audens was on that crucial 3rd and 9 where he spilt 2 defenders and stretched out and Gio scored on his

(11-02-2020, 05:26 PM)Au165 Wrote: To me it's about the concept. If you want to set him up in a Nasty Split opposite trips to the wide side and run a back-shoulder fade in isolation I am all about it because of his catch radius and jumping ability. Everyone will expect the slant flat pick play to the trips side that is popular right now.

I've just preferred in-breaking routes because it always causes me to clinch when i see something like they did with Gio on 4th down last week. It's almost like i'm waiting for the ball to be picked and taken back the other way--it just seems that more than not, the ball is thrown to the inside a bit too much and it's an angle just waiting to go wrong. 

The Nasty split gives him more room to work with and as long as the throw is high...so, i'd be down with that. 

(11-02-2020, 05:39 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I've just preferred in-breaking routes because it always causes me to clinch when i see something like they did with Gio on 4th down last week. It's almost like i'm waiting for the ball to be picked and taken back the other way--it just seems that more than not, the ball is thrown to the inside a bit too much and it's an angle just waiting to go wrong. 

The Nasty split gives him more room to work with and as long as the throw is high...so, i'd be down with that. 

Don't be late, that's the key. You can never be late working inside out whereas working outside in you can wait.

(11-02-2020, 05:03 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I wonder how much more you're going to hate Tate when/if they ever start using him properly in the redzone. 

We're top 10 in red zone offense over the last 3 games, so I think they're doing ok managing the red zone offense without drawing up high risk plays specifically to try and get a #4/5 WR a TD.  You would have to agree that they don't seem to have a problem using Tee, Boyd, and Gio in the red zone.  

It's just funny to me.  We had people talking all off-season about just throwing the ball up to Tate on the fade in the end zone and when they try that, he doesn't come through.  Then it's "Blah, blah, blah.  the fade sucks.  The coaches aren't using him right.". Then we have nuggets of wisdom like "If he catches a slant inside the 10, it's a TD 8 out of 10 times".  Of course, he averages 3.7 yac, but whatever.

Even funnier is his fans repeatedly tear down other WR's on this team to build him up(Like AJ and Ross in this thread), but point out any of Tate's flaws and they act like you insulted their first born.

(11-02-2020, 06:53 PM)Whatever Wrote: We're top 10 in red zone offense over the last 3 games, so I think they're doing ok managing the red zone offense without drawing up high risk plays specifically to try and get a #4/5 WR a TD.  You would have to agree that they don't seem to have a problem using Tee, Boyd, and Gio in the red zone.  

It's just funny to me.  We had people talking all off-season about just throwing the ball up to Tate on the fade in the end zone and when they try that, he doesn't come through.  Then it's "Blah, blah, blah.  the fade sucks.  The coaches aren't using him right.". Then we have nuggets of wisdom like "If he catches a slant inside the 10, it's a TD 8 out of 10 times".  Of course, he averages 3.7 yac, but whatever.

Even funnier is his fans repeatedly tear down other WR's on this team to build him up(Like AJ and Ross in this thread), but point out any of Tate's flaws and they act like you insulted their first born.

AJ is coming around, Ross is done and Tate has shown to, at least, keep the chains moving. Zac and Callahan both said he's been underutilized. 

Tate should only give them one more option when they're in the redzone and it shouldn't only be to attempt fades. He scored a touchdown once every four catches in college. There's no reason he can't be productive in the redzone here if used right. 

(11-02-2020, 07:18 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: AJ is coming around, Ross is done and Tate has shown to, at least, keep the chains moving. Zac and Callahan both said he's been underutilized. 

Tate should only give them one more option when they're in the redzone and it shouldn't only be to attempt fades. He scored a touchdown once every four catches in college. There's no reason he can't be productive in the redzone here if used right. 

Unfortunately, I don't really trust this staff's media takes on players.  They talk nice about everybody, even Ross.  

Looking at snap counts, in a typical game Thomas plays a little over 30% of the offensive snaps and Tate a little over 20%.  Tate played a lot more against Philly and Tennessee.  Why?  Neither club has a CB taller than 6'0". The coaching staff is playing matchups, which is frankly the smart thing to do. Tate gives them a mismatch in games with teams with small CB's.  They tried to exploit that against Philly, but their CB's held up with good positional play and ball skills.  They tried it against the Titans and had a ton of success with it.

The issue is, Tate and Thomas are the #4 and #5 WR's depending on the week.  How much are you going to go into 4-5 wide in the red zone?  Doing so is especially bad for us because we have a suspect OL and it invites the blitz since the D doesn't have to sweat the big play.  Are you pulling Tee, Boyd, or AJ off the field for Tate?  Not if you're smart.  If you go 4-5 WR, you're probably running a fade on one side to draw a defender out of the middle of the field and to give your QB a quick throw in case the blitz comes, anyways.  Sad reality is, any play you draw up to specifically get Tate the ball down there Tee and/or AJ can run as good or better without tipping your hand and likely without forcing Burrow to make as good of a throw.  

If every player did in the pro's what they did in college,no GM would ever miss on a draft pick. Not everything a guy has in college translates.  Vonn Bell was lauded for his coverage ability in college and he's basically a box S in the pro's.  Whenever I hear "if he was used right" it makes me cringe because it inevitably reminds me of the millions of OSU fans excuse making for why a guy was a bust in the NFL.

(11-02-2020, 06:53 PM)Whatever Wrote: We're top 10 in red zone offense over the last 3 games, so I think they're doing ok managing the red zone offense without drawing up high risk plays specifically to try and get a #4/5 WR a TD.  You would have to agree that they don't seem to have a problem using Tee, Boyd, and Gio in the red zone.  

It's just funny to me.  We had people talking all off-season about just throwing the ball up to Tate on the fade in the end zone and when they try that, he doesn't come through.  Then it's "Blah, blah, blah.  the fade sucks.  The coaches aren't using him right.". Then we have nuggets of wisdom like "If he catches a slant inside the 10, it's a TD 8 out of 10 times".  Of course, he averages 3.7 yac, but whatever.

Even funnier is his fans repeatedly tear down other WR's on this team to build him up(Like AJ and Ross in this thread), but point out any of Tate's flaws and they act like you insulted their first born.

People would be criticizing AJ and Ross even if Tate wasn’t on the team. Has nothing to do with liking one guy over the other. They have both been really bad at times this season. AJ for weeks on end. And Ross enough to get benched all together. Tate OTOH makes the most out of his limited opportunities.

But by the sounds of it we’re about to see Tate involved a lot more, so we will find out once and for all what he can do. Guy had 575 yds last year with Dalton and Finley throwing him the ball, so I think he might do pretty well with Burrow.

(11-02-2020, 11:43 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: People would be criticizing AJ and Ross even if Tate wasn’t on the team. Has nothing to do with liking one guy over the other. They have both been really bad at times this season. AJ for weeks on end. And Ross enough to get benched all together. Tate OTOH makes the most out of his limited opportunities.

But by the sounds of it we’re about to see Tate involved a lot more, so we will find out once and for all what he can do. Guy had 575 yds last year with Dalton and Finley throwing him the ball, so I think he might do pretty well with Burrow.

Tate just had a 65 yard game and some are saying we should bench AJ Green for him.  Seriously, 65 yards.  That's how low the bar has been set for him.  

AJ has certainly had his share of bad games this year.  Ross has certainly had a lot more bad games than good ones.  However, something people consistently overlook is that Green or Ross at their best are miles better than Tate at his best.

He doesn't make the most of every opportunity.  He had 4 catches on 7 targets for 56 yards going into the Titans game.  Thomas had 54 yards on 3 targets in the 2nd Cleveland game alone.  Seriously, everything the guy does turns into a massive fish tale.  He can be left wide open on a busted coverage and it turns into a one handed fingertip catch over quintuple coverage while simultaneously Van Damme kicking a middle eastern terrorist and still getting the toe tap in bounds.  

(11-03-2020, 02:02 AM)Whatever Wrote: Tate just had a 65 yard game and some are saying we should bench AJ Green for him.  Seriously, 65 yards.  That's how low the bar has been set for him.  

AJ has certainly had his share of bad games this year.  Ross has certainly had a lot more bad games than good ones.  However, something people consistently overlook is that Green or Ross at their best are miles better than Tate at his best.

He doesn't make the most of every opportunity.  He had 4 catches on 7 targets for 56 yards going into the Titans game.  Thomas had 54 yards on 3 targets in the 2nd Cleveland game alone.  Seriously, everything the guy does turns into a massive fish tale.  He can be left wide open on a busted coverage and it turns into a one handed fingertip catch over quintuple coverage while simultaneously Van Damme kicking a middle eastern terrorist and still getting the toe tap in bounds.  

The more relevant stat from that game was he went 7/7. He literally caught everything thrown his way. And the fact that some people might want Tate over AJ says more about current AJ than Tate. Tate obviously isn’t a world beater by any means, but he’s making catches AJ simply can not (or isn’t willing to) make anymore. I don’t think they should “bench” AJ, but Tate deserves more targets. The deep balls to AJ have not been there at all, and should probably stop being forced just because he’s AJ Green. Burrow has a much better connection on the longer throws with Tee, anyway.

As far as people exaggerating plays Tate makes, I would say the same the other way around how you tend to downplay almost everything he does with comments like “literally any WR in the league should make that catch” (literally any WR was not making that catch Tate went way up for Sunday).

But this is pointless. You made up your mind on Tate a long time ago, And have dug your heels in no matter how many plays the kid makes.

AJ has the 12th most targets in the league (63) but is 51st in yds (316) with 0 TD. I don’t understand why you wouldn’t want to spread those targets around to other guys when the results have not been very good to say the least.

Just jumping in after 6 pages  So a lot of people have probably already said this.

I have given a lot of people grief for their over-the-top hype of Auden Tate, but he made a bunch of key catches Sunday.  No big gainers, but it seemed like every one he was leaping to make the catch  or stretching to convert a third down.

He still is not the unstoppable threat some people claim, but he had a very good game.

(11-03-2020, 02:25 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: The more relevant stat from that game was he went 7/7. He literally caught everything thrown his way. And the fact that some people might want Tate over AJ says more about current AJ than Tate. Tate obviously isn’t a world beater by any means, but he’s making catches AJ simply can not (or isn’t willing to) make anymore. I don’t think they should “bench” AJ, but Tate deserves more targets. The deep balls to AJ have not been there at all, and should probably stop being forced just because he’s AJ Green. Burrow has a much better connection on the longer throws with Tee, anyway.

As far as people exaggerating plays Tate makes, I would say the same the other way around how you tend to downplay almost everything he does with comments like “literally any WR in the league should make that catch” (literally any WR was not making that catch Tate went way up for Sunday).

But this is pointless. You made up your mind on Tate a long time ago, And have dug your heels in no matter how many plays the kid makes.

Both stats are relevant.  If a guy catches 7 of 7 targets and gets you 15 yards, he didn't do a whole lot to help your team win.  Conversely, if a guy catches one of three targets, but that one catch is a 75 yard TD, he helped a lot.  7 of 7 is impressive, especially considering some of the catch difficulties.  However, what's better for your team, 65 yards on 7 targets or 54 yards on 3?  Don't see a lot of Mike Thomas threads, though.

The thing with AJ is that while his individual production has been disappointing, he is still drawing some double teams, which opens up the other guys.  He will also probably continue to see deep shots because we are severely lacking deep threats and we can't just become one dimensional and throw them all to Tee.  

I haven't downplayed any of Tate's catches from this past game.  He had several difficult grabs and made some great effort plays to get first downs.  However, the fact that people gushed about a 19;yard grab he made on a busted coverage is a joke.  That's like some serious pee wee football bench warmer dad stuff there.  Literally every other WR on the team has made tougher grabs than that with nowhere near the fanfare.

Seriously, I can play the "entrenched in your beliefs" card against Tate's fans just as easily, if not more so.  I didn't create upteenth million threads to tear him down like his fans have done to try and build him up.  I said he was a good #4/5 WR.  I didn't call him a high end #2 or compare him to greats like Rice and Boldin.  Of course, 8 weeks into the season with him looking exactly like what I said he was guys want to backtrack and say "Well, nobody said he was that great", but we were all in those off-season threads.