(11-30-2020, 02:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Drew Brees......2nd round
Russell Wilson..3rd round
Kirk Cousins.....4th round
Dak Prescott...4th round


You can get a better QB than Joe Burrow much later than the first overall pick

We've created an argument no one is making. Nicomo stated Sample would seem like a bad value in the 4th round based on his production compared to TEs drafted later. You changed that to Burrow being a wasted pick because a few QBs taken in later rounds have excelled, even though you had to go back 20 years to find a couple of them.

BLUF: Sample was over-drafted and is under-performing. 

(11-30-2020, 02:06 PM)Whatever Wrote: Seriously? Uzomah isn't a WR.  You also left out Ross and Erickson, who are below him in both categories.  If he's worse than Tee, Boyd, and Thomas, tied with Tate, and better than AJ, Erickson, and Ross, he is as good or better than half the WR's on the roster by definition.

What's funny is that as a TE, he has the same YPT and a better catch % than Tate, but Tate gets hyped to no end while he gets buried.

I haven’t seen any Tate hype in weeks.

(11-30-2020, 02:12 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I haven’t seen any Tate hype in weeks.

And I have not seen any threads claiming he is a bum either.

Probably because the people who were never impressed with Tate don't see any reason to go out of their way just to shit on a Bengal player.

(11-30-2020, 02:03 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'll add the kid from Green Bay, who's been looking pretty good this year.

Robert Tonyan - Undrafted

He's got 37 receptions, with 458 yards receiving and 7 TD's, in only 8 starts this season.

What about our own CJ Uzomah, who is far from great, but sill much better than Sample?

Uzomah - 5th round

Greatly outplayed Sample in the same exact offense.  Averaged more than double the yards per game, and managed to score a TD in  1.75 games played this season.

You realize that Sample has more catches and yards on fewer targets this year than CJ did in his second year, right?

Seriously, you're comparing a vet with years of experience to a 2nd year guy who was on IR a good chunk of his rookie year.

(11-30-2020, 02:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Drew Brees......2nd round
Russell Wilson..3rd round
Kirk Cousins.....4th round
Dak Prescott...4th round


You can get a better QB than Joe Burrow much later than the first overall pick

I’m not resorting to examples of HoFers. Did I say you could easily find the next Antonio Gates as an UDFA? No, I didn’t. I threw out some of the best TE’s who are playing in the league right now. If you can’t admit the odds of getting a better TE than Sample much later (Uzomah says hello) you’re not trying to debate in good faith. You’re just arguing to argue as usual.

(11-30-2020, 02:11 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: What’s the excuse for the other 9 games he’s been the starter?

I guess I don’t understand what we are excusing him for?

Drafted too early — yes
Underperforming — yes
Complete bum — nah

Maybe I’ve been tainted by the Ogbuehis, Ross and Finley’s of the world.

To me he seems like an average TE who would have some decent production on a healthy team. This team isn’t healthy (physically and mentally) and doesn’t use him correctly IMO. Putting him alone vs good DEs being a prime example.

Again, not saying he is good, just saying he is serviceable and that we have a plethora of other things to focus on fixing.

(11-30-2020, 02:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And I have not seen any threads claiming he is a bum either.

Probably because the people who were never impressed with Tate don't see any reason to go out of their way just to shit on a Bengal player.

The fact that he was drafted in the 7th round, and is our #4 WR probably has something to do with that.

For someone that has such a problem with people shitting on players, you sure do a lot of it with our starting QB...

(11-30-2020, 02:17 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m not resorting to examples of HoFers. Did I say you could easily find the next Antonio Gates as an UDFA? No, I didn’t. I threw out some of the best TE’s who are playing in the league right now. If you can’t admit the odds of getting a better TE than Sample much later (Uzomah says hello) you’re not trying to debate in good faith. You’re just arguing to argue as usual.

Now you have switched the argument from "He is a total bum" to "He was over drafted".

And the names I threw out there are some of the best QBs playing in the league right now.  No one is calling Dak Prescott of Kirk Cousins "Hall of Famers"

(11-30-2020, 02:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We've created an argument no one is making. Nicomo stated Sample would seem like a bad value in the 4th round based on his production compared to TEs drafted later. You changed that to Burrow being a wasted pick because a few QBs taken in later rounds have excelled, even though you had to go back 20 years to find a couple of them.

BLUF: Sample was over-drafted and is under-performing. 

The problem with the examples given is there are a ton of TE's taken in those ranges in those drafts that are not outproducing Sample. I agree he was overdrafted.  However, you can cherry pick examples of late round finds at any position group to make a guy seem like he was a bad pick.

(11-30-2020, 02:17 PM)Whatever Wrote: You realize that Sample has more catches and yards on fewer targets this year than CJ did in his second year, right?

Seriously, you're comparing a vet with years of experience to a 2nd year guy who was on IR a good chunk of his rookie year.

Uzomah was competing with Tyler Eifert (only started 2 games but played in 8) and Tyler Kroft his second season. Who’s been Sample’s competition since week 3?

(11-30-2020, 02:18 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I guess I don’t understand what we are excusing him for?

Drafted too early — yes
Underperforming — yes
Complete bum — nah

Maybe I’ve been tainted by the Ogbuehis, Ross and Finley’s of the world.

To me he seems like an average TE who would have some decent production on a healthy team. This team isn’t healthy (physically and mentally) and doesn’t use him correctly IMO. Putting him alone vs good DEs being a prime example.

Again, not saying he is good, just saying he is serviceable and that we have a plethora of other things to focus on fixing.

We can agree on the bold and leave it at that.

(11-30-2020, 02:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Now you have switched the argument from "He is a total bum" to "He was over drafted".

And the names I threw out there are some of the best QBs playing in the league right now.  No one is calling Dak Prescott of Kirk Cousins "Hall of Famers"

No just your ridiculous Tom Brady analogy you jumped right to.

(11-30-2020, 02:21 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: For someone that has such a problem with people shitting on players, you sure do a lot of it with our starting QB...

I constantly talk about how much I like Burrow and love his potential.

The problem I have is that anyone who says Burrow can't walk on water is called a hater.

Burrow is 24th in passer rating among QBs.
Sample is 25th in receptions among TEs.

Notice any difference on how they are treated around here?

I am in no way claiming Sample is as good of a player as Burrow.  I am just posting these numbers to show how crazy the radical extremists are around here.

(11-30-2020, 02:21 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: The fact that he was drafted in the 7th round, and is our #4 WR probably has something to do with that.

For someone that has such a problem with people shitting on players, you sure do a lot of it with our starting QB...

The issue is Auden Tate fans move the goalposts so much for him it isn't even funny.  Case in point, when Tate can't score TD's, it's "The coaches aren't using him right!". When Sample can't score TD's it's "He's a bum!"

And ZTs "system" does not utilize the TE as a passing weapon a lot. It is what it is.

(11-30-2020, 02:35 PM)Whatever Wrote: The issue is Auden Tate fans move the goalposts so much for him it isn't even funny.  Case in point, when Tate can't score TD's, it's "The coaches aren't using him right!". When Sample can't score TD's it's "He's a bum!"

I’m a fan of Tate, but his lack of TD’s is pretty concerning. We should absolutely be looking for upgrades at WR.

(11-30-2020, 02:06 PM)Whatever Wrote: Seriously? Uzomah isn't a WR.  You also left out Ross and Erickson, who are below him in both categories.  If he's worse than Tee, Boyd, and Thomas, tied with Tate, and better than AJ, Erickson, and Ross, he is as good or better than half the WR's on the roster by definition.

What's funny is that as a TE, he has the same YPT and a better catch % than Tate, but Tate gets hyped to no end while he gets buried.

Erickson is listed right on there.  I didn't bother listing Ross because he's only played in 2 games.

Have you seen the type of catches Tate attempts to make vs. Sample?  Could that help explain the difference in catch % for Sample vs really any of our receivers?

He mostly catches little 5 yard dumpoffs.  He's had a couple across the middle, and one nice one on the sideline, but the overwhelming majority have bs dink and dunk, that 99.9% of the skill position players in the league would make at an equal rate.

Auden Tate is a 7th round receiver people wanted to get reps as our #4/5.  Drew Sample is a 2nd round TE that is now our #1 TE in a pass heavy offense.  If your argument is to pit Sample against a low draft pick and role player, then you're basically proving the point.  The guy has absolutely no business being a #1 TE, nor should he have been taken in the first 4 rounds.

(11-30-2020, 02:37 PM)Joelist Wrote: And ZTs "system" does not utilize the TE as a passing weapon a lot. It is what it is.

Wes has already provided the numbers on how often he’s running routes. It’s much higher than people are suggesting.

(11-30-2020, 02:26 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Uzomah was competing with Tyler Eifert (only started 2 games but played in 8) and Tyler Kroft his second season. Who’s been Sample’s competition since week 3?

Uzomah had more competition for snaps, but again, more targets due to the fact we are looking at an entire year for him vs 2/3 of a season for Sample.

(11-30-2020, 01:39 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Dogging on Sample is like when your wife is mad about something but brings up an argument from years ago.

Fan is mad about crappy team with injured franchise QB:
“Remember that time we drafted this guy in the 2nd round?”

Wife is mad about crappy marriage and something guy did:
“Remember that time you bought that boat without talking to me first?!”

There are so many other issues with this team. Sample hasn’t been anything more than average on his best day, but he isn’t the one tanking this team either. When it comes to receiving threats he’s prob #3 behind Boyd and Higgins. Let that sink in.

This.

On the Bengals we are talking about Sample? Drew F***ing Sample?