Not for nothing, but Sample also has to help this horrendous oline block pass rushers, so he may not be as free to get downfield and catch passes as some other TE's who can just run because their line holds up....

(12-02-2020, 02:14 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: TJ Hockenson is a top 5 tight end in this league

You don’t need pro football focus to tell u that

I hate how people reference pff like it’s the end all be all. Stop it

agreed, its a silly conversation. Those PFF Numbers dont always tell the full story.

(12-02-2020, 12:31 PM)kalibengal Wrote: agreed, its a silly conversation. Those PFF Numbers dont always tell the full story.

Again, referencing PFF grades is only a problem if you solely use them, and don’t also rely on stats, eye test, and a multitude of other things to judge players.

(12-02-2020, 10:52 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Not for nothing, but Sample also has to help this horrendous oline block pass rushers, so he may not be as free to get downfield and catch passes as some other TE's who can just run because their line holds up....

He was top 5 in routes run as of last week.  He's running routes, but for whatever reason they just don't throw him the ball.

Only three explantions I can think of:

1.) Burrow refused to throw to him even though he's open
2.) Zac Taylor design plays where he's literally the last option every play, and he should just keep him in to block if that's the case.
3.) He just can't get open.

IMHO, it's either 2 or 3, and it's most likely a healhty combination of both.

(12-02-2020, 01:02 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: He was top 5 in routes run as of last week.  He's running routes, but for whatever reason they just don't throw him the ball.

Only three explantions I can think of:

1.) Burrow refused to throw to him even though he's open
2.) Zac Taylor design plays where he's literally the last option every play, and he should just keep him in to block if that's the case.
3.) He just can't get open.

IMHO, it's either 2 or 3, and it's most likely a healhty combination of both.

He's tied for 6th among TE's in separation per NFL Next Gen Stats, so it's definitely not 3.

has been said over and over but given the awful state of the o and d line it remains baffling why they wasted a second round pick on a 5th to 6th round talent.

(12-02-2020, 01:19 PM)Whatever Wrote: He's tied for 6th among TE's in separation per NFL Next Gen Stats, so it's definitely not 3.

Where is he in YAC? That seems to be more of a problem to me (more so than just getting open for 5 yds anyway). He looks so slow most of the time.

(12-02-2020, 01:19 PM)Whatever Wrote: He's tied for 6th among TE's in separation per NFL Next Gen Stats, so it's definitely not 3.

So it's number 1 then.  Joe just refused to throw him the ball.

Keep in mind, our other receivers aren't getting a ton of seperation.  They rarely catch the ball in space.  So if Sample is out there getting tons of it, then that means Burrow just isn't seeing the field.

Maybe you're right (along with Nex Gen Stats) I just find this almost impossible to believe.  Burrow's cramming passes in all over the place, with defenders draped all over our WR's, and Sample is out there getting seperation?  Joe doesn't see this?  This doesn't show up on film?

(12-02-2020, 01:33 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Where is he in YAC? That seems to be more of a problem to me (more so than just getting open for 5 yds anyway). He looks so slow most of the time.

It's probably higher than you think.

Why?  Because his average reception travels all of 5.2 yards.  He catches a check-down pass and then lumbers for another 2 to 4, before a defender comes up.  Boom, YAC goes up.

Sample is a very good #3 TE on most teams.He just lacks the traits
To be a #1 TE.

(12-02-2020, 01:33 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Where is he in YAC? That seems to be more of a problem to me (more so than just getting open for 5 yds anyway). He looks so slow most of the time.

(12-02-2020, 01:40 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: It's probably higher than you think.

Why?  Because his average reception travels all of 5.2 yards.  He catches a check-down pass and then lumbers for another 2 to 4, before a defender comes up.  Boom, YAC goes up.

He's 14th among TE's by my count in YAC/Reception at 4.8.  Wes is correct in that route selection can greatly affect a guy's YAC and he's used on a lot of check down routes that get him the ball in space.

The real pertinent stat is his Expected YAC is the exact same as his actual YAC at 4.8 per reception.  That's essentially perfectly average.  He gets the yardage he should get, but doesn't give you any extra.

(12-02-2020, 01:38 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: So it's number 1 then.  Joe just refused to throw him the ball.

Keep in mind, our other receivers aren't getting a ton of seperation.  They rarely catch the ball in space.  So if Sample is out there getting tons of it, then that means Burrow just isn't seeing the field.

Maybe you're right (along with Nex Gen Stats) I just find this almost impossible to believe.  Burrow's cramming passes in all over the place, with defenders draped all over our WR's, and Sample is out there getting seperation?  Joe doesn't see this?  This doesn't show up on film?

No, it’s number 2. ZT designs plays where Sample chips then runs a route. Our Oline is so bad that by the time he starts running his route the ball has already been released or Joe is on his back.

So, Sample ranks high on routes run, cuz ZT is always sending him out, but he is the last to get open and there isn’t enough time for a route like that to develop.

Those are my assumptions anyways. Doesn’t make Sample a good TE and ZT just needs to keep him in to block if this is the case.

(12-02-2020, 02:36 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: No, it’s number 2. ZT designs plays where Sample chips then runs a route. Our Oline is so bad that by the time he starts running his route the ball has already been released or Joe is on his back.

So, Sample ranks high on routes run, cuz ZT is always sending him out, but he is the last to get open and there isn’t enough time for a route like that to develop.

Those are my assumptions anyways. Doesn’t make Sample a good TE and ZT just needs to keep him in to block if this is the case.

This make perfect sense for why he's not getting targets, but then I don't know where the separation stats come into play.

If Nex Gen Stats has him getting decent separation then I''m wondering who's he's seperating from.  The D-Line?  Because if he's running routes like you're suggesting, then he woudn't have time to get all the way into his route where separation can be judge.  Nor for a defender to come and properly cover him in route, after he comes of the LOS.

I know our offense line has had plenty of it's share of problems, but let's not act like they're haven't been plenty of times Joe had more than enough time to work through his reads.

I will say this, I definitely agree that Zac Taylor probably doesn't use him in the best way (I don't think Taylor uses anyone in the best way).  And I'm sure protection issues have affected his ceiling.  But these numbers are so shockingly bad I think there's more there than that.  Namely, the dude is just a piss-poor receiving option.

To each their own, but if I take all of the above away, take all the stats away, take everything out of the picture, and just watch him with my own eyes, he just looks like another run of the mill retread backup tight end.  I just don't think he's physically capable of ever being anything more that.  He looks slow, and he looks unathletic from quickness and agility standpoint.

I'm sure I've said my piece by now, so I'll bow out of thread.  I'll guess we'll have to wait and see.  Maybe he does come on at some point and gives 600+ yards and 5+ TD's a season.  I just don't think it'll ever come close to happening.  Hope I'm wrong.

(12-02-2020, 02:56 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This make perfect sense for why he's not getting targets, but then I don't know where the separation stats come into play.

If Nex Gen Stats has him getting decent separation then I''m wondering who's he's seperating from.  The D-Line?  Because if he's running routes like you're suggesting, then he woudn't have time to get all the way into his route where separation can be judge.  Nor for a defender to come and properly cover him in route, after he comes of the LOS.

I know our offense line has had plenty of it's share of problems, but let's not act like they're haven't been plenty of times Joe had more than enough time to work through his reads.

I will say this, I definitely agree that Zac Taylor probably doesn't use him in the best way (I don't think Taylor uses anyone in the best way).  And I'm sure protection issues have affected his ceiling.  But these numbers are so shockingly bad I think there's more there than that.  Namely, the dude is just a piss-poor receiving option.

To each their own, but if I take all of the above away, take all the stats away, take everything out of the picture, and just watch him with my own eyes, he just looks like another run of the mill retread backup tight end.  I just don't think he's physically capable of ever being anything more that.  He looks slow, and he looks unathletic from quickness and agility standpoint.

I'm sure I've said my piece by now, so I'll bow out of thread.  I'll guess we'll have to wait and see.  Maybe he does come on at some point and gives 600+ yards and 5+ TD's a season.  I just don't think it'll ever come close to happening.  Hope I'm wrong.

I agree with you, I don’t think he will be a huge receiving threat for us anytime soon or ever for that matter.

As for separation, I’m not sure how that stat is calculated. Seems tricky depending on the position and what coverage was called. Is it calculated every time he runs a route, or only when there is enough time for the route to develop? If no one is covering him has he separated? Next gen stats are confusing and in turn misleading at times I think.

Last thing I’ll say is that he doesn’t have to be a receiving threat to make a positive impact for this team. This is where ZT is failing us by sending him out constantly on routes. Keep him in to block, hell, throw him in at FB simply to block. He doesn’t have the skill set to be an Eifert, Gronk, Kelce, or Vernon Davis... quit trying to use him like he does.

Definitely seems like a pattern with these coaches not knowing how to use certain players properly (Dunlap, Geno, Sample, etc).

Haven't read through the thread, but in my opinion, so far he's improved over last year, and that's all that we can ask for at this juncture. A 2nd round pick is tough given we passed on Metcalf, but we've blown worse 2nd round picks.

He can still improve, I think he's earned a 3rd year. I agree Zac's offense doesn't run through TE's. I believe in his relationship with Burrow, and think it has potential to grow, or at the least, keep him a key option between the 20's, once the oline get's fixed.

So whatever the case is if Zac stays TE is the least of our worries.

We need to draft a top TE in the mid rounds to replace Sample. Dude is a joke and we need a "quick and tall" to replace him ASAP. Sample's "great blocking" has yet to translate and I'm not sure it ever will. He was a reach/joke draft pick and he's continued on that same path.

Sample isn't really a bum. I think he's an okay TE considering the situation.

We're set with Uzomah and Sample.

What did the last 3 Super Bowl champs have in common?

Philly
Pats
Chiefs

(12-04-2020, 11:09 AM)bfine32 Wrote: What did the last 3 Super Bowl champs have in common?

Philly
Pats
Chiefs

not buying it. Remember when elite wide receivers didnt win super bowls? Well the Chiefs have Tyreek Hill