Our LB's are still terrible. (Wilson actually makes some splash plays from time to time atleast.) 85% allowed for Pratt. 85%!

Jackson is having a good year and obviously Bates who is our best player on defense.

Other Bengals defender's coverage completion percentages this season.
Germaine Pratt 85%
LeShaun Sims 80%
Josh Bynes 79%
Akeem Davis-Gaither 72%
Mackensie Alexander 72%
Logan Wilson 69%
Vonn Bell 64%
Jessie Bates 61%
Darius Phillips 57%
William Jackson 53%

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) December 7, 2020

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Some of those numbers look alarmingly high. I wonder how they compare to the league averages by position? (not sure where to look up stats that specific)

(12-08-2020, 08:32 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Some of those numbers look alarmingly high.  I wonder how they compare to the league averages by position?  (not sure where to look up stats that specific)

The catch percentage allowed for a linebacker is usually very high, their job is more so to make sure they don't go beyond where they catch the ball. It's the nature of the routes they cover (HB out of the back field, TE stick route). For instance, Darius Leonard of Indy is considered a REALLY good linebacker and he allowed 80% completions against him last year, same goes for Kwon Alexander. In reality, the fact Logan Wilson only allows 69% makes him well above average in that area.

(12-08-2020, 09:09 AM)Au165 Wrote: The catch percentage allowed for a linebacker is usually very high, their job is more so to make sure they don't go beyond where they catch the ball. It's the nature of the routes they cover (HB out of the back field, TE stick route). For instance, Darius Leonard of Indy is considered a REALLY good linebacker and he allowed 80% completions against him last year, same goes for Kwon Alexander. In reality, the fact Logan Wilson only allows 69% makes him well above average in that area.

That makes complete sense, as the LBs are typically covering the highest percentage routes.  With the secondary, it's obvious that Leshawn Simms should be spending more time on the bench than on the field, but has been pressed into service because of the injuries to Waynes and others.

In spite of all, if the team could manufacture a pass rush, the defense really wouldn't look all that bad.  We've had excellent play from the Safeties.

(12-08-2020, 09:30 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That makes complete sense, as the LBs are typically covering the highest percentage routes.  With the secondary, it's obvious that Leshawn Simms should be spending more time on the bench than on the field, but has been pressed into service because of the injuries to Waynes and others.

In spite of all, if the team could manufacture a pass rush, the defense really wouldn't look all that bad.  We've had excellent play from the Safeties.

In all honesty, if we had any pass rush at all I feel like the numbers overall would drop a bit. I continue to bang the drum that the biggest issue on this team is not the O-line (which is bad), but is in fact the pass rush which has been abysmal for a while now. We can't manufacture pressure with four-man fronts which means we can't win against good teams.

(12-08-2020, 12:07 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Our LB's are still terrible. (Wilson actually makes some splash plays from time to time atleast.) 85% allowed for Pratt. 85%!

Jackson is having a good year and obviously Bates who is our best player on defense.

Other Bengals defender's coverage completion percentages this season.
Germaine Pratt 85%
LeShaun Sims 80%
Josh Bynes 79%
Akeem Davis-Gaither 72%
Mackensie Alexander 72%
Logan Wilson 69%
Vonn Bell 64%
Jessie Bates 61%
Darius Phillips 57%
William Jackson 53%

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) December 7, 2020

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Our LBs are not terrible.  Bates allowed 61% and those are more downfield plays.  Is Bates terrible?  The Bengals have been getting by with the likes of Xavier Williams and Christian Covington playing DT.  They are so inept that it hurts everything from the DEs and their pass rush (easy to step up and avoid the DEs) to the LBs and CBs (how long to you expect them to cover).  

That being said, Jackson had a serious game against Parker.  He owned his ass Sunday.  I just wish he was a little bit more consistent.  

If you look around the league and rate some of the best coverage LBs, I would imagine they are on teams with a solid front line that creates pressure without having to blitz all the time.  

This is why, outside of Sewell, I would be targeting the interior of the defensive line in Rds 2 and 3 next year.  The Washington Football Team (sounds so stupid to say it still) has a couple beasts in the middle.  Not just Chase Young outside.  They could make things pretty interesting in the playoffs now that they have solid QB play (Alex Smith has been remarkable given his comeback) is no longer losing games for them and that defense....should be taken seriously.

(12-08-2020, 08:32 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Some of those numbers look alarmingly high.  I wonder how they compare to the league averages by position?  (not sure where to look up stats that specific)

Yessir. I might start another thread on it, but our LB's were terrible this year. This shows the pass coverage.

Their PFF grades are terrible too when I look.

It's one of those things that the offensive line and defensive line get most of the attention.

(12-08-2020, 09:09 AM)Au165 Wrote: The catch percentage allowed for a linebacker is usually very high, their job is more so to make sure they don't go beyond where they catch the ball. It's the nature of the routes they cover (HB out of the back field, TE stick route). For instance, Darius Leonard of Indy is considered a REALLY good linebacker and he allowed 80% completions against him last year, same goes for Kwon Alexander. In reality, the fact Logan Wilson only allows 69% makes him well above average in that area.

This.

Lost in this season of ineptitude is that we have a real find in Logan Wilson.  They don't seem to know what to do with ADG, and Pratt seems to have disappeared?  I would like to see Markus Bailey get some of Bynes' snaps at this point. 

(12-08-2020, 09:30 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That makes complete sense, as the LBs are typically covering the highest percentage routes.  With the secondary, it's obvious that Leshawn Simms should be spending more time on the bench than on the field, but has been pressed into service because of the injuries to Waynes and others.

In spite of all, if the team could manufacture a pass rush, the defense really wouldn't look all that bad.  We've had excellent play from the Safeties.

We are lacking tremendously in pass rush, especially from the interior.  Even when Hubbard or Lawson win outside, the QB can just step up in the pocket and deliver the ball easily.  Out DTs are nonexistent.  

So, our biggest problem on defense is the interior of the defensive line, and the biggest problem on offense is the interior of the offensive line.  Where will they spend their FA dollars and their draft picks?  Hmmm.

I know I have said it 1000 times, but here is 1001:  Sign Thuney.  Get Reader and Tupou/Wren back.  Draft Sewell.  Then, aside from one pick on a WR, draft interior defensive linemen and interior offensive linemen and create serious competition in those position groups.  

Note: This would be assuming they are able to sign WJIII and Alexander as well, negating the need for a high draft pick on a CB.  

(12-08-2020, 09:09 AM)Au165 Wrote: The catch percentage allowed for a linebacker is usually very high, their job is more so to make sure they don't go beyond where they catch the ball. It's the nature of the routes they cover (HB out of the back field, TE stick route). For instance, Darius Leonard of Indy is considered a REALLY good linebacker and he allowed 80% completions against him last year, same goes for Kwon Alexander. In reality, the fact Logan Wilson only allows 69% makes him well above average in that area.

This

Pratt has only allowed 230 passing yards on 35 targets.  That is only 6.6 per target which is not bad.  It is actually better than Logan Wilson's 6.8.

The league average for completion percentage has ballooned to 65.4%.  Every QB is completing 70 to 80 percent of short dump of passes in front of LBs.

(12-08-2020, 10:07 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: This.

Lost in this season of ineptitude is that we have a real find in Logan Wilson.  They don't seem to know what to do with ADG, and Pratt seems to have disappeared?  I would like to see Markus Bailey get some of Bynes' snaps at this point. 

Wilson makes splash plays, but I wouldn't say he's some great player. He just gets opportunities to play here that he wouldn't get on other teams. I think he needs A LOT of development, but I like his speed and he seems to have good instincts. <--- None of that is meant to bash him. If we had 2 better LB's and a good DL, he might be doing a lot better. It's hard for any LB, when you have no pass rush or DL.

His PFF grade is 55.4.

ADG...I was surprised when I read that he's been losing playing time to Jordan Evans recently. We know Evans is bad. I'd like to see them just ride out ADG.

(12-08-2020, 10:12 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: We are lacking tremendously in pass rush, especially from the interior.  Even when Hubbard or Lawson win outside, the QB can just step up in the pocket and deliver the ball easily.  Out DTs are nonexistent.  

So, our biggest problem on defense is the interior of the defensive line, and the biggest problem on offense is the interior of the offensive line.  Where will they spend their FA dollars and their draft picks?  Hmmm.

I know I have said it 1000 times, but here is 1001:  Sign Thuney.  Get Reader and Tupou/Wren back.  Draft Sewell.  Then, aside from one pick on a WR, draft interior defensive linemen and interior offensive linemen and create serious competition in those position groups.  

Note: This would be assuming they are able to sign WJIII and Alexander as well, negating the need for a high draft pick on a CB.  

Seems like a solid plan doesn't it?

We'll just see what they do. Sewell seems like the obvious pick at 3, but I wouldn't be surprised if Jackson left and they drafted a CB.

One thing that worries me about Sewell is he missed this past season because he opted out. His technique will be rusty. Hopefully we have a competent staff here. As we saw with Robert Gallery...there are no can't miss guys.

(12-08-2020, 10:17 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Wilson makes splash plays, but I wouldn't say he's some great player. He just gets opportunities to play here that he wouldn't get on other teams. I think he needs A LOT of development, but I like his speed and he seems to have good instincts. <--- None of that is meant to bash him. If we had 2 better LB's and a good DL, he might be doing a lot better. It's hard for any LB, when you have no pass rush or DL.

His PFF grade is 55.4.

ADG...I was surprised when I read that he's been losing playing time to Jordan Evans recently. We know Evans is bad. I'd like to see them just ride out ADG.

I disagree.  He is long and gets deep in his drops very quickly.  That is how he has gotten a few tipped balls and INTs.  He is a sure tackler and he is being asked to do a lot in space as Bynes doesn't cover much area.

If there is one thing where PFF lacks it is with LB ratings.  As Kyle Van Noy once said, (paraphrasing):  I hate PFF because they never knew what my assignment was and they always graded me low.

We need one more LB to step up and play nickel next to Wilson.  I hope they give Bailey a shot.  Before his injuries he was rated ahead of guys like Wilson.  Very instinctual.  I hope he is healthy and gets a shot.  

(12-08-2020, 10:21 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I disagree.  He is long and gets deep in his drops very quickly.  That is how he has gotten a few tipped balls and INTs.  He is a sure tackler and he is being asked to do a lot in space as Bynes doesn't cover much area.

If there is one thing where PFF lacks it is with LB ratings.  As Kyle Van Noy once said, (paraphrasing):  I hate PFF because they never knew what my assignment was and they always graded me low.

We need one more LB to step up and play nickel next to Wilson.  I hope they give Bailey a shot.  Before his injuries he was rated ahead of guys like Wilson.  Very instinctual.  I hope he is healthy and gets a shot.  

I'm just saying that he wouldn't be playing 50% of the defensive snaps on the Steelers or a lot of other teams. Our lack of talent at LB, necessitates we play some of these guys.

He can develop and I do like his potential in a lot of ways.

I'm a bit disappointed they don't play him more instead of Bynes.

(12-08-2020, 10:21 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I disagree.  He is long and gets deep in his drops very quickly.  That is how he has gotten a few tipped balls and INTs.  He is a sure tackler and he is being asked to do a lot in space as Bynes doesn't cover much area.

If there is one thing where PFF lacks it is with LB ratings.  As Kyle Van Noy once said, (paraphrasing):  I hate PFF because they never knew what my assignment was and they always graded me low.

We need one more LB to step up and play nickel next to Wilson.  I hope they give Bailey a shot.  Before his injuries he was rated ahead of guys like Wilson.  Very instinctual.  I hope he is healthy and gets a shot.  

Rookie Stack LB ratings on PFF

Patrick Queen- 22
Kenneth Murray- 52
Jordyn Brooks- 43.9
Willie Gay- 53.6
Logan Wilson- 55.4
Jacob Phillips- 44.2
Mallik Harrison- 51.3
Akeem Davis-Gaither- 44.5

...context matters.

(12-08-2020, 09:42 AM)Au165 Wrote: In all honesty, if we had any pass rush at all I feel like the numbers overall would drop a bit. I continue to bang the drum that the biggest issue on this team is not the O-line (which is bad), but is in fact the pass rush which has been abysmal for a while now. We can't manufacture pressure with four-man fronts which means we can't win against good teams.

Our biggest issue is still the guard play.  Can't open rush lanes, and can't protect the QB.  You are correct though, sir (tips hat to Ed McMahon), that the pass rush (or lack thereof) is a very big need on this team.  I would put it right behind interior offensive line.  Call it need 1A.  And I would actually focus on the interior of the defensive line.  Getting Reader back will help, but we need depth at DT as Tupou and Wren are really just NTs.  

Watching Washington's defensive line, it is far from just Chase Young on the outside.  They quite possibly have the best interior defensive line in the league.  With Smith playing as well as he is, no one is going to want to play that team should they make the playoffs.  Just like when Seattle was heavily criticized as a 7-9 playoff team, only to knock off a heavily-favored Saints team.  

(12-08-2020, 10:29 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Our biggest issue is still the guard play.  Can't open rush lanes, and can't protect the QB.  You are correct though, sir (tips hat to Ed McMahon), that the pass rush (or lack thereof) is a very big need on this team.  I would put it right behind interior offensive line.  Call it need 1A.  And I would actually focus on the interior of the defensive line.  Getting Reader back will help, but we need depth at DT as Tupou and Wren are really just NTs.  

Watching Washington's defensive line, it is far from just Chase Young on the outside.  They quite possibly have the best interior defensive line in the league.  With Smith playing as well as he is, no one is going to want to play that team should they make the playoffs.  Just like when Seattle was heavily criticized as a 7-9 playoff team, only to knock off a heavily-favored Saints team.  

I know that Center isn't the issue as Guard, but what are your thoughts on Hopkins? He was a vast upgrade to Price at Center, but I think he's below average overall.

We have way bigger needs though.

(12-08-2020, 10:20 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Seems like a solid plan doesn't it?

We'll just see what they do. Sewell seems like the obvious pick at 3, but I wouldn't be surprised if Jackson left and they drafted a CB.

One thing that worries me about Sewell is he missed this past season because he opted out. His technique will be rusty. Hopefully we have a competent staff here. As we saw with Robert Gallery...there are no can't miss guys.

I completely agree about the no "can't miss" guys, but with Jonah's injury and Bobby Hart forgetting that guys can take an inside rush (unless there was an assignment error on the RG?) I think the best OT in the draft is an absolute no brainer.  I like Adeniji a lot, but he is going to take a year or two to get the technique and add strength.  

It would be interesting if a team like, I don't know, Miami...who has extra picks, offers the Bengals a haul for the #3 overall and they want Sewell.  One thing about this year's draft class:  there is a fairly deep crop of talented OTs.  And we all know the Bengals have lots of holes.  I know, I know...it would have to be a haul of picks, but if it is?    

(12-08-2020, 10:28 AM)Au165 Wrote: Rookie Stack LB ratings on PFF

Patrick Queen- 22
Kenneth Murray- 52
Jordyn Brooks- 43.9
Willie Gay- 53.6
Logan Wilson- 55.4
Jacob Phillips- 44.2
Mallik Harrison- 51.3
Akeem Davis-Gaither- 44.5

...context matters.

Thanks for posting that. It does matter and it shows he's doing really well among his rookie peers.

(12-08-2020, 10:25 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm just saying that he wouldn't be playing 50% of the defensive snaps on the Steelers or a lot of other teams. Our lack of talent at LB, necessitates we play some of these guys.

He can develop and I do like his potential in a lot of ways.

I'm a bit disappointed they don't play him more instead of Bynes.

Ok, I get it.  You could say in contrast, though, that him being out there as a rookie a good number of plays is also leaving him exposed, but he is looking very comfortable in the role.  

He and Bynes are usually on the field together, especially in nickel.  I wish they would go with Pratt and Wilson in nickel.  Or Wilson and ADG to see how he does.