It's really very simple, choose the option that you feel works best.

A. Retreat and "catch" (what the Bengals currently do)

B. Meet and Defeat (meeting the defenders charge, and forcing him to defeat the block)

I was unaware that there was any strategy at all when it comes to blocking on this team.

Retreat and Catch works pretty well for guys like Whitworth... hmmmm

(12-09-2020, 12:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's really very simple, choose the option that you feel works best.

A. Stand there and watch them run past you (what the Bengals currently do)

B. Meet and Defeat (meeting the defenders charge, and forcing him to defeat the block)

Fixed it for you

Just out of curiosity, what team do you think currently runs this "meet and defeat" scheme you seem to really like?

Edit: not being condescending here, I literally have never heard someone use this term so I’m trying to understand who may do something as you describe because I’ve never seen it.

Bobby Shart loves choice A. Choice B implies effort and possibly washing his jersey after the game.

Fire out on play action or roll outs. Set and catch on drop back passes.

Isn't that is how all teams do it?

(12-09-2020, 02:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Fire out on play action or roll outs.  Set and catch on drop back passes.

Isn't that is how all teams do it?

Pretty much

(12-09-2020, 01:45 PM)Au165 Wrote: Just out of curiosity, what team do you think currently runs this "meet and defeat" scheme you seem to really like?

Edit: not being condescending here, I literally have never heard someone use this term so I’m trying to understand who may do something as you describe because I’ve never seen it.

I really am not looking at getting into the intricacies and nuances of specific schemes, as they are numerous and seemingly ever changing in verbiage.  

What I'm really getting at is, the Bengals run a lot of quick release pass plays, play actions, screens/dumps.  Why aren't they executing a Jump Set to actually give some teeth to the play action?  Why aren't they executing 45° sets to properly execute screens, swing passes, and runs to the outside?  It seems as if they are constantly executing vertical drops, like it's going to be a 7 step drop.

Why give the defender 2-3 yards of running head start?  Why not meet him at the snap?  Even if the defender easily wins the matchup, it's still going to take him a second or two to wrestle past or step over the OL.

These options are situational. But I also think some guys are better at pulling one type off compared to the other.
For example, I think Billy Price struggles with "drop and catch" because of his lack of length. He works best driving off the ball.

What I think a better poll might be is what is a better pass blocking strategy: man blocking or zone blocking?

(12-09-2020, 02:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Fire out on play action or roll outs.  Set and catch on drop back passes.

Isn't that is how all teams do it?

Not how I've been seeing the Bengals execute play action plays, lately.  They seem to me to be going straight to a vertical drop, like it's going to be a 7 step drop back.

I'm not an evaluator of Olines in any way, but I've always thought the "meet and defeat" approach was more for run blocking than pass blocking. I've very rarely, if ever, seen an offensive lineman step forward on a pass blocking rep (outside of aggressive play action roll outs maybe), at least not as far as I can remember.

I have no problem with a blocking strategy that creates a pocket via "retreating". Our big problem is the guys are not "catching" the defender after they retreat. They just let them whip past them.

(12-09-2020, 03:16 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I really am not looking at getting into the intricacies and nuances of specific schemes, as they are numerous and seemingly ever changing in verbiage.  

What I'm really getting at is, the Bengals run a lot of quick release pass plays, play actions, screens/dumps.  Why aren't they executing a Jump Set to actually give some teeth to the play action?  Why aren't they executing 45° sets to properly execute screens, swing passes, and runs to the outside?  It seems as if they are constantly executing vertical drops, like it's going to be a 7 step drop.

Why give the defender 2-3 yards of running head start?  Why not meet him at the snap?  Even if the defender easily wins the matchup, it's still going to take him a second or two to wrestle past or step over the OL.

Can you show me a video of the Bengals doing something you think other teams aren't doing? Again, you are throwing a lot of terminologies out but in misplaced or misused examples. I am trying to figure out what you think the Bengals are actually doing that is unique because the only thing I see is them executing poorly.

Edit: After thinking on it a bit, are you talking about tackles more so or interior guys? I am watching videos of our blocking and we are jump setting inside a ton because we get a man-up defender often. The tackles are vertical setting as needed or 45 settings basically any non PA pass, so I am not seeing the issues. A 45 set is just a jump set for an off defender. 45 sets often look like vertical sets because guys set too deep, which maybe that is more of what you are seeing.

I would like our O-line to play more aggressive in the run game and as you say "meet and greet". Also there are times when
Defenders try to knock down passes at the Line where you should have the OL hit him in the chest. But yeah, have to fall back
and create a pocket in the passing game most of the time.

(12-09-2020, 03:23 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I'm not an evaluator of Olines in any way, but I've always thought the "meet and defeat" approach was more for run blocking than pass blocking. I've very rarely, if ever, seen an offensive lineman step forward on a pass blocking rep (outside of aggressive play action roll outs maybe), at least not as far as I can remember.

I have no problem with a blocking strategy that creates a pocket via "retreating". Our big problem is the guys are not "catching" the defender after they retreat. They just let them whip past them.

You shouldn't see the OL firing out on a pass play.  If they move past the line of scrimmage before the ball comes out on a pass play, it's a penalty for illegal man downfield.  

I thought the current was stand and slap?

(12-09-2020, 03:34 PM)Au165 Wrote: Can you show me a video of the Bengals doing something you think other teams aren't doing? Again, you are throwing a lot of terminologies out but in misplaced or misused examples. I am trying to figure out what you think the Bengals are actually doing that is unique because the only thing I see if them executing poorly. Bad communication, poor anchor, bad hand placement are major issues right now...there is nothing special or different about their blocking scheme that I can see. Admittedly I am more of a QB/WR/Secondary guy.

https://www.sbnation.com/2016/11/25/13746680/nfl-pass-blocking-sets-best-offensive-linemen-joe-thomas-tyron-smith

I chose the terms that they use in this article for sake of simplicity.  No matter the specific scheme, the three types of pass blocking sets are pretty much universal.

I don't think that we are too far off in opinion, just how we present it.  For example you say "lack of execution" or "poor hand placement", where I might say they aren't firing out to sell the play action.  And I agree, the specific scheme being used may not be the problem as much as the coach not getting the players to understand, communicate and execute the plan.

On the difference between Zone and Man?  I'm a firm believer that until an OL unit can adequately execute the fundamentals of Man directional blocking, perform simple traps and sweeps, they really have no business trying to mess around with "guessing" which man is their man in a Zone situation.

(12-09-2020, 03:52 PM)Whatever Wrote: You shouldn't see the OL firing out on a pass play.  If they move past the line of scrimmage before the ball comes out on a pass play, it's a penalty for illegal man downfield.  

False, if his entire body is 3 yards down field it's a penalty for illegal man down field.  That is the common misconception about pass blocking, many think that the OL's job is to instantly retreat.  That is far from the truth.  They absolutely should be firing forward to "sell the run" on play action, 3 step drops, etc.

(12-09-2020, 04:05 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: False, if his entire body is 3 yards down field it's a penalty for illegal man down field.  That is the common misconception about pass blocking, many think that the OL's job is to instantly retreat.  That is far from the truth.  They absolutely should be firing forward to "sell the run" on play action, 3 step drops, etc.

The NFL rules are actually written as 1 yard.

(12-09-2020, 04:05 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: False, if his entire body is 3 yards down field it's a penalty for illegal man down field.  That is the common misconception about pass blocking, many think that the OL's job is to instantly retreat.  That is far from the truth.  They absolutely should be firing forward to "sell the run" on play action, 3 step drops, etc.

There is one more element - if the lineman is engaged in blocking he is not illegally downfield. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineligible_receiver_downfield