(12-11-2020, 05:54 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I'm not total support of FA big signing but the team has drafted high line picks over the past 6 years but many have not worked out.

Yep!

The only OL pick that has worked out that was a 4th-rd-or-higher draft pick by the Bengals since 2015 has been Jonah Williams...possibly.
Jonah has played 10 games and looks solid, but he'll have missed 20+ games in his career through just 2 seasons. Hard to tell how his career will play out.

Jordan and Price have been terrible.
Ogbuehi and Fisher were bad.

I think the Bengals ultimately have bad evaluators at OL. They look at size, length, and athleticism, and then base strength off the bench press at the Combine. They say they primarily go off tape, but all the OL aside from maybe Jonah Williams had glaring weaknesses that needed good coaching to improve.
Also, they have had 3 OL coaches since 2015 - Alexander, Pollack, and then Turner. So what one OL coach thought was a good fit may not have been a good fit in the next coach's scheme.

I think that the Bengals have the best luck when they have a safe, proven player in their lap. No, Price, Ogbuehi, and Fisher were not proven studs. They had some good traits (athleticism and length for Fisher and Ogbuehi, strength and mean streak for Price), but they were not high-floor guys.
The only guy who was considered a high-floor guy was Jonah Williams. The Bengals need to take an OL with a high floor, as they don't have the proven coaching to groom OL properly.

(12-12-2020, 11:27 PM)Jpoore Wrote: I’m not talking about 6th round picks or udfas. I’m talking about improving the team. tackle is INSANELY deep this year. The tackle class this year= wr class last year. It’s that deep. I would take any of the top 5 tackles plus 3 extra top 60 picks over next year or 2 to trade back 8-10 spots. I’ll say again I’ll take Wyatt Davis Alex leatherwood Asante Samuel and a couple other high picks following year over Sewell.

IOL is just as deep as the Tackle class maybe deeper when you consider some of the tackles like Alex Leatherwood or Rashawn Slater could end up moving inside.

(12-13-2020, 03:01 PM)Synric Wrote: IOL is just as deep as the Tackle class maybe deeper when you consider some of the tackles like Alex Leatherwood or Rashawn Slater could end up moving inside.

I think both of those are tackles at the next level. And yeah both are deep that’s my point. U trade back. Get ur team upgraded across the board. U have the potential here to turn this franchise around in one offseason. This draft is going to be made in the 2-3 rounds. That’s where the meat is. Trade back. Multiple times of possible but not to far back. Get 4-5 picks in rounds 2 and 3. If we were just a couple players away I’d say go for the elite player. But we’re not. We’re 10 away.

(12-13-2020, 06:02 PM)Jpoore Wrote: I think both of those are tackles at the next level. And yeah both are deep that’s my point. U trade back. Get ur team upgraded across the board. U have the potential here to turn this franchise around in one offseason. This draft is going to be made in the 2-3 rounds. That’s where the meat is. Trade back. Multiple times of possible but not to far back. Get 4-5 picks in rounds 2 and 3. If we were just a couple players away I’d say go for the elite player. But we’re not. We’re 10 away.

Trading up into the top 5 for a non-QB is rare. So the likelyhood of a trade scenario doesnt hold much water.

I can see a the Bengals trading back from 35 alot higher probability. 

(12-13-2020, 06:09 PM)Synric Wrote: Trading up into the top 5 for a non-QB is rare. So the likelyhood of a trade scenario doesnt hold much water.

I can see a the Bengals trading back from 35 alot higher probability. 

I agree most trade ups that high is a QB but it Sewell is that good a offer should come

(12-13-2020, 07:13 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I agree most trade ups that high is a QB but it Sewell is that good a offer should come

I'm sure that is said about alot of the top 5 non-QB prospects but still top 5 non-QB trades are rare.

(12-13-2020, 09:19 PM)Synric Wrote: I'm sure that is said about alot of the top 5 non-QB prospects but still top 5 non-QB trades are rare.

They just don’t happen very often. I think the last one was Buffalo trading up from 9 to 4 to take Sammy Watkins in 2014.

Nobody traded up for Young. Nobody traded up for either Bosa. Nobody traded up for Barkley. Nobody traded up for Garrett. Nobody traded up for Mack. Etc.

With the Eagles and Chargers both winning today, even if we beat Houston (which we won't), we are guaranteed the 3rd pick (of course I assume we don't have a chance in hell against Pitt or Balt).

Now the next good news would be Zac getting canned. Hopefully they make the right hire this time.

(12-13-2020, 09:19 PM)Synric Wrote: I'm sure that is said about alot of the top 5 non-QB prospects but still top 5 non-QB trades are rare.

Might be rare but not impossible. If you're a team like  the Dolphins you might think you are one player away from being a championship team hell maybe you make a deal for a top player.

(12-13-2020, 06:09 PM)Synric Wrote: Trading up into the top 5 for a non-QB is rare. So the likelyhood of a trade scenario doesnt hold much water.

I can see a the Bengals trading back from 35 alot higher probability. 

It’s rare but not unheard of at all. Also it’s all about the talent. If u feel he’s that good, or if u feel that ur one elite tackle away?

(12-13-2020, 09:19 PM)Synric Wrote: I'm sure that is said about alot of the top 5 non-QB prospects but still top 5 non-QB trades are rare.

It is, but not crazy as Atlanta came up for Julio (27 to 6) and I think JaMar Chase could be that guy in some people's minds. Now with that said, the other thing is it doesn't have to be a massive move. Suratin is a really good CB and there are a lot of teams from 4-7 that could REALLY use his services.  I am not as high on Sewell as most here though, so I am highly in favor of a move down.

(12-14-2020, 09:27 AM)Au165 Wrote: It is, but not crazy as Atlanta came up for Julio (27 to 6) and I think JaMar Chase could be that guy in some people's minds. Now with that said, the other thing is it doesn't have to be a massive move. Suratin is a really good CB and there are a lot of teams from 4-7 that could REALLY use his services.  I am not as high on Sewell as most here though, so I am highly in favor of a move down.

My big reason for trade down is I LOVE these players in rds 2 and 3. I would trade down 3-4 times(but not past say pick 15) give me 5 picks in rds 2 and 3 while also giving me Wyatt Davis and Alex leatherwood? Yes please.

(12-13-2020, 09:39 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: They just don’t happen very often. I think the last one was Buffalo trading up from 9 to 4 to take Sammy Watkins in 2014.

Nobody traded up for Young. Nobody traded up for either Bosa. Nobody traded up for Barkley. Nobody traded up for Garrett. Nobody traded up for Mack. Etc.

The issue with trades that high is a valuation problem. Teams often overvalue picks and in doing so become stuck in their spot. For instance, the "trade chart" may say I am supposed to get a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd  to move down to 12, but I was only offered a 1st and 2nd. You hear it a lot after drafts, "we took calls but in the end, no one was offering us enough to move back off our guy". I think a team willing to maybe take a slight discount could move back, which I would be willing to do in this draft because I think this year is a year you want numbers.

As an aside, it wasn't quite a top 5pick but the Steelers moved 20 to 10 for Devin Bush a few years back. I still don't think we are incapable of moving #3 for a QB either right now. Let's see what the final draft order looks like but I have heard rumblings there are teams that have Wilson higher than Fields on their board currently. 

(12-14-2020, 09:27 AM)Au165 Wrote: It is, but not crazy as Atlanta came up for Julio (27 to 6) and I think JaMar Chase could be that guy in some people's minds. Now with that said, the other thing is it doesn't have to be a massive move. Suratin is a really good CB and there are a lot of teams from 4-7 that could REALLY use his services.  I am not as high on Sewell as most here though, so I am highly in favor of a move down.

I'm generally not as high on the trade down bandwagon as most. But this offseason I'm leaning more and more towards it. We need so many pieces. 

(12-15-2020, 11:44 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'm generally not as high on the trade down bandwagon as most. But this offseason I'm leaning more and more towards it. We need so many pieces. 

The problem really is we have needs at two positions that usually come at a very high premium in FA OL and DL. Honestly, outside of Bud Dupree Carl Lawson could be one of the top FA pass rushers on the market this year so you could re-sign him but you are ending up with the same rush you had for the most part next season. The offensive line will have a few options that will come at a steep premium, but it wouldn't be crazy to try and grab one of these guys. 


If you were to say give Taylor Moton a big-time contract, that could give you enough leeway to trade back and get a pass rusher then go interior OL in the 2nd and potentially again with the extra 2nd you'd presumably get with that move down. Even if you can't move back, signing a guy like Moton would still give you the flexibility to go with another need like Patrick Surtain at 3 then go pass rusher in the 2nd and Guard in the 3rd.

If they are serious about winning, they will need to address one of the needs in FA and I just don't see how you could address pass rush in FA this year. Many people will say Thueny but I still don't see us spending a ton on a guard, so in my mind tackle would be the move. If it's not a guy like Moton it could be Okung, Williams, or maybe another vet that has a couple of years left in them. 

well considering are recent draft trends with 1st round OTS i trade back and get a proven vet....

But hey this one could work out right?

(12-15-2020, 11:55 AM)Au165 Wrote: If they are serious about winning, they will need to address one of the needs in FA and I just don't see how you could address pass rush in FA this year. Many people will say Thueny but I still don't see us spending a ton on a guard, so in my mind tackle would be the move. If it's not a guy like Moton it could be Okung, Williams, or maybe another vet that has a couple of years left in them. 

That's why I'm all for Larry Warford in Free Agency. 

Veteran right guard that is still a great run blocker and solid in pass pro. I think he also fits the system they have been running. He could also be had for a smaller short term. That way they can target a C/G in the 3rd or 4th that can compete against Trey Hopkins. Landon Dickerson or Trey Hill.

(12-15-2020, 01:30 PM)Synric Wrote: That's why I'm all for Larry Warford in Free Agency. 

Veteran right guard that is still a great run blocker and solid in pass pro. I think he also fits the system they have been running. He could also be had for a smaller short term. That way they can target a C/G in the 3rd or 4th that can compete against Trey Hopkins. Landon Dickerson or Trey Hill.

I don't mind Warford, his career has been a little up and down though which makes me worry a bit. I also would prefer a tackle as I think that gives us a bit more flexibility in the draft over a guard.

(12-15-2020, 12:54 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: well considering are recent draft trends with 1st round OTS i trade back and get a proven vet....

But hey this one could work out right?

Many will counter those guys were all fringe and Sewell is better, which to be fair he is a better prospect than most we have seen. I still would argue that this draft is REALLY good at tackle and getting an upgrade at tackle can be had all throughout the 1st round. 

(12-15-2020, 01:38 PM)Au165 Wrote: Many will counter those guys were all fringe and Sewell is better, which to be fair he is a better prospect than most we have seen. I still would argue that this draft is REALLY good at tackle and getting an upgrade at tackle can be had all throughout the 1st round. 

Honest question.  How would you compare this T class to the 2019 T class?