I was quite excited to see the Bengals pick up Quinton Spain mid-season after he was cut by the Bills.
Prior to coming to Cincinnati, he was a very good well-rounded blocker, but especially a good pass protector.
When looking at PFF, Spain had a 70+ pass blocking grade every year 2015-2019.
However, he's down to a paltry 44.9 this season, 6 games with the Bengals.

I thought maybe it's the blocking scheme, as from everything I've seen of BUF, they run more of a man power blocking scheme. The Bengals ran a heavy zone scheme to start out 2019, and then shifted to a gap power scheme the second half of last year. I haven't taken the time to go back to watch tape to confirm, but from what I recall watching, the team has gone back to a zone blocking scheme in 2020.

I decided to go back and read up on Spain's scouting report from different sources. They mention that Spain is a much better fit in a power scheme vs a zone scheme. He doesn't have the lateral agility to shift sideways. He needs to be going forward and driving off the ball.

So do you think this is another instance of putting a square peg in a round hole with Spain not being able to execute the scheme?

If the rest of the offensive line blocked like Quinton Spain then Joe Burrow would still be lining up behind center. Xavier Su’a-Filo has impressive technique too. If Jim Turner had any sense about him he would adjust the rest of the offensive line to block like those two!

(12-15-2020, 01:07 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: If the rest of the offensive line blocked like Quinton Spain then Joe Burrow would still be lining up behind center. Xavier Su’a-Filo has impressive technique too.   If Jim Turner had any sense about him he would adjust the rest of the offensive line to block like those two!

Not sure I'm quite following.
From my observation, Spain hasn't been a great blocker since he arrived in Cincy. He's been ok at times, but I've not seen consistent quality game-after-game.

Are you saying that the blocking scheme needs to be catered to his strengths?
Or are you saying he looks fine to you and the others just need to be better?
If the latter, perhaps you could provide some clips as a Bengal where he's blocking really well?

In 2019 the Bengals started out running alot more zone stretch ala Rams at the end it was still zone blocking but with more man techniques (Pin & Pull). In 2020 they are trying to run more flex a mix between tight, inside, and mid zone and inside power ala Saints.

Quinton Spain has run inside and outside zone schemes for the Titans and Power-Man for the Bills so he has a variety of experience doing a little bit of everything. That is also Run blocking. In pass pro they run alot more Man (B.O.B) but mix in zone with extra defenders at the line.

Spains biggest issue in pass pro right now is he came in mid-season, has played 3 different positions, and has played next to different guys almost every week building zero chemistry. There has been so much rotation on the offensive line.

If the scheme is "we don't really block in the middle of the offensive line", then yes. He fits the scheme quite well.

(12-15-2020, 01:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Not sure I'm quite following.
From my observation, Spain hasn't been a great blocker since he arrived in Cincy. He's been ok at times, but I've not seen consistent quality game-after-game.

Are you saying that the blocking scheme needs to be catered to his strengths?
Or are you saying he looks fine to you and the others just need to be better?
If the latter, perhaps you could provide some clips as a Bengal where he's blocking really well?

To be more specific nobody on that offensive line looks “fine” to me! If you watch the Steelers or even the Browns you’ll see much more physically aggressive offensive line play. Spain and XSF are trying to adjust to what Jim Turner mistakenly calls a technique and the other tubs of goo are already doing it the way Turner wants.

(12-15-2020, 01:25 PM)Synric Wrote: In 2019 the Bengals started out running alot more zone stretch ala Rams at the end it was still zone blocking but with more man techniques (Pin & Pull). In 2020 they are trying to run more flex a mix between tight, inside, and mid zone and inside power ala Saints.

Quinton Spain has run inside and outside zone schemes for the Titans and Power-Man for the Bills so he has a variety of experience doing a little bit of everything. That is also Run blocking. In pass pro they run alot more Man (B.O.B) but mix in zone with extra defenders at the line.

Spains biggest issue in pass pro right now is he came in mid-season, has played 3 different positions, and has played next to different guys almost every week building zero chemistry. There has been so much rotation on the offensive line.

There was a shift the second half of the season last year where they switched to a gap man scheme and it worked quite well.
https://www.cincyjungle.com/2019/11/14/20962159/bengals-weekly-lineman-the-transition-to-a-gap-style-blocking-scheme

It doesn't seem that the Bengals are sticking with what made them successful the second half of last season.
I don't really understand the need to try to shift to something else given they seemed to find a winning formula last year...unless they felt that gap blocking scheme wouldn't fit well with what they wanted to do on offense with Burrow now as the QB?

(12-15-2020, 11:39 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I was quite excited to see the Bengals pick up Quinton Spain mid-season after he was cut by the Bills.
Prior to coming to Cincinnati, he was a very good well-rounded blocker, but especially a good pass protector.
When looking at PFF, Spain had a 70+ pass blocking grade every year 2015-2019.
However, he's down to a paltry 44.9 this season, 6 games with the Bengals.

I thought maybe it's the blocking scheme, as from everything I've seen of BUF, they run more of a man power blocking scheme. The Bengals ran a heavy zone scheme to start out 2019, and then shifted to a gap power scheme the second half of last year. I haven't taken the time to go back to watch tape to confirm, but from what I recall watching, the team has gone back to a zone blocking scheme in 2020.

I decided to go back and read up on Spain's scouting report from different sources. They mention that Spain is a much better fit in a power scheme vs a zone scheme. He doesn't have the lateral agility to shift sideways. He needs to be going forward and driving off the ball.

So do you think this is another instance of putting a square peg in a round hole with Spain not being able to execute the scheme?

If I recall correctly, same thing with Jon Miller from Buffalo.

The Bengals don't really seem to be able to assess guys for scheme. Lineman, cornerbacks, etc.

Using PFF ratings is a tricky thing for linemen. The line has to function as a whole. If a player has a weaker player next to him, his numbers will struggle because he has to try to compensate. Spain is fine, we need help around him.

The whole "scheme" thing is misleading here. People keep talking about blocking schemes when in reality pass blocking schemes are actually really basic and pretty universal. Now there can be varying techniques used but that isn't a scheme it's more preference and player ability thing. In terms of pass blocking, we do what most people do which is base Big on Big with slide protection on overloads and bootlegs and some combo blocking rpo actions and 3 step drops.

Where you start talking about man, or power blocking, and zone blocking is really just in relation to the running game, or if you are the Rams and heavy zone running play-action you go get a bit more zone blocking but only as a result of the PA. This year we have run a similar combo scheme we ran last year. Lots of pin and pull for the outside zone but still some power scheme on inside running plays.

My observation on the line as a whole continues to be that issues are not scheme related. It wasn't scheme related when Alexander was here and it wasn't when Pollock was here. The issues here continue to be poor communication and bad technique (usually because players are bad). QB's can help hide these flaws by checking out of bad, or tough to block plays, and also setting protections and help communicate that protection call. I think Burrow will help with this over time and if we can upgrade the quality of player, zone aside, we will find ourselves in a better situation. I mean let's be honest the Bills in the midst of a playoff hunt cut the dude, that doesn't tend to happen with guys teams think can help them achieve their goals.

(12-15-2020, 02:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: The whole "scheme" thing is misleading here. People keep talking about blocking schemes when in reality pass blocking schemes are actually really basic and pretty universal. Now there can be varying techniques used but that isn't a scheme it's more preference and player ability thing. In terms of pass blocking, we do what most people do which is base Big on Big with slide protection on overloads and bootlegs and some combo blocking rpo actions and 3 step drops.

Where you start talking about man, or power blocking, and zone blocking is really just in relation to the running game, or if you are the Rams and heavy zone running play-action you go get a bit more zone blocking but only as a result of the PA. This year we have run a similar combo scheme we ran last year. Lots of pin and pull for the outside zone but still some power scheme on inside running plays.

My observation on the line as a whole continues to be that issues are not scheme related. It wasn't scheme related when Alexander was here and it wasn't when Pollock was here. The issues here continue to be poor communication and bad technique (usually because players are bad). QB's can help hide these flaws by checking out of bad, or tough to block plays, and also setting protections and help communicate that protection call. I think Burrow will help with this over time and if we can upgrade the quality of player, zone aside, we will find ourselves in a better situation. I mean let's be honest the Bills in the midst of a playoff hunt cut the dude, that doesn't tend to happen with guys teams think can help them achieve their goals.

I totally get what you mean in regards to run blocking. But I thought there was a distinct difference between zone and man blocking in the passing game too.

As such, help me understand this situation then that we've seen multiple times this year...
An OL (e.g. Bobby Hart) doesn't stay engaged in his block during a pass set. When he disengages (if he engages at all), the defender seems to go right by him. Does that mean that the RG didn't do what he was supposed to do? Or did the RT disengage when he should have stayed engaged?

Does that style of pass blocking not fall under the definition of scheme?

I always thought that in man blocking for pass protection, you basically block your assigned guy. And in zone blocking for pass protection, you stick to your area and pass off any defenders who leave your area and go into someone else's area.

(12-15-2020, 03:17 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I totally get what you mean in regards to run blocking. But I thought there was a distinct difference between zone and man blocking in the passing game too.

As such, help me understand this situation then that we've seen multiple times this year...
An OL (e.g. Bobby Hart) doesn't stay engaged in his block during a pass set. When he disengages (if he engages at all), the defender seems to go right by him. Does that mean that the RG didn't do what he was supposed to do? Or did the RT disengage when he should have stayed engaged?

Does that style of pass blocking not fall under the definition of scheme?

I always thought that in man blocking for pass protection, you basically block your assigned guy. And in zone blocking for pass protection, you stick to your area and pass off any defenders who leave your area and go into someone else's area.

This all gets really complex to explain in writing versus speaking so forgive me if this gets a little mixed up. I am not any expert in O line play, I focus more on QB's and perimeter players but with that said...

That is the B.O.B and slide (Combo is a mix). So for instance, the play everyone tweeted about against Miami where a guy runs right between Spain and Hart was because of a protection change. It was initially Big on Big to start so Spain thought he had the tackle and Hart had the end with the back potentially picking up the outside blitzer. They checked the call to "Ringo" or a slide right, so Hart went outside to the potentially blitzing CB with just a quick check to the end expecting Spain to block down to the end. The Center comes down on the tackle leaving Spain essentially helping inside then watching the end run by untouched.

This is kind of a vague description and a video would better example would help. It could be a technique thing, as I don't understand what you mean exactly in disengage, where he could be resetting off a spin move. On a spin move staying engaged is part of what makes the move work so by resetting you counter the move. The other thing is it could potentially be a protection call issue kind of like what was said above where he thought he had slide protection and was essentially just helping on his way to work outside and help never came inside. 

There are different kinds of pass sets people will reference at times but I don't really consider those to be schemes as they tend to be a part of all schemes in some way in the NFL. Most times when guys get beat it's because of poor technique, the set was trying to get them in position better but good technique from any set will still win, which brings me back to it is usually a player problem not set or scheme issue.

Nah. It can seem that way sometimes when you see an O lineman standing blocking air but usually, that occurs because of a ID'ing issue where a potential Blitzer was ID'd and never came so he is left waiting for something that never happened. Like I said the only time there is really a "zone" blocking principal is on a slide and while it kind of is block spaces there are still principals based on where the "mike" was ID'd and who you are expecting to block. 

(12-15-2020, 02:41 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Using PFF ratings is a tricky thing for linemen. The line has to function as a whole. If a player has a weaker player next to him, his numbers will struggle because he has to try to compensate. Spain is fine, we need help around him.

To some extent, isn't that football?

The offensive line ratings seem to be fairly accurate form PFF.

Spain is mediocre at best. He's mediocre here. He was mediocre in Buffalo. You don't see teams sign guys to a multi-year contract in the offseason and cut them half way through the year when they're good players.

(12-15-2020, 11:39 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I was quite excited to see the Bengals pick up Quinton Spain mid-season after he was cut by the Bills.
Prior to coming to Cincinnati, he was a very good well-rounded blocker, but especially a good pass protector.
When looking at PFF, Spain had a 70+ pass blocking grade every year 2015-2019.
However, he's down to a paltry 44.9 this season, 6 games with the Bengals.

I thought maybe it's the blocking scheme, as from everything I've seen of BUF, they run more of a man power blocking scheme. The Bengals ran a heavy zone scheme to start out 2019, and then shifted to a gap power scheme the second half of last year. I haven't taken the time to go back to watch tape to confirm, but from what I recall watching, the team has gone back to a zone blocking scheme in 2020.

I decided to go back and read up on Spain's scouting report from different sources. They mention that Spain is a much better fit in a power scheme vs a zone scheme. He doesn't have the lateral agility to shift sideways. He needs to be going forward and driving off the ball.

So do you think this is another instance of putting a square peg in a round hole with Spain not being able to execute the scheme?

I think he came in and played pretty well but in pass protection he definitely appears to have started to show some struggles  ...as you say especially where there's lateral movement like in covering stunts.

Once he gets locked on with his size/girth he's OK and i think we definitely appear better running behind the right side of the line (both Jonah and MJ where getting zero push on the left).

I still think communication has played a significant role in the pass pro breakdowns though...the OLine has been a hot mess + lots of different combos so for Spain can't be easy - if you can't play fast then you are going to struggle no matter what the scheme fit

Spain is a LG. For some ungodly reason, someone decided that that was MJ's spot and that Spain should shift to the right with hardly any preparation. It's like how they would line Bell up in man-to-man coverage against fast receivers - it was a plan that begged for disaster. 

Just read on NFL.com:

"The Bengals have the fourth-lowest QB pressure rate (21.9%) and have allowed the second-most sacks in the league (46). They're going to have to reverse these trends to find their way out of the cellar. "

How in the world do we have the fourth lowest QB pressure rate with this line? Is this just a weird stat?

(12-16-2020, 01:49 AM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: Just read on NFL.com:

"The Bengals have the fourth-lowest QB pressure rate (21.9%) and have allowed the second-most sacks in the league (46). They're going to have to reverse these trends to find their way out of the cellar. "

How in the world do we have the fourth lowest QB pressure rate with this line? Is this just a weird stat?

We get the 4th lowest amount of pressure on opposing QB’s is how I read it.

Surprising there’s 3 worse teams...

(12-16-2020, 01:49 AM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: Just read on NFL.com:

"The Bengals have the fourth-lowest QB pressure rate (21.9%) and have allowed the second-most sacks in the league (46). They're going to have to reverse these trends to find their way out of the cellar. "

How in the world do we have the fourth lowest QB pressure rate with this line?  Is this just a weird stat?

They're talking about our D line...

(12-16-2020, 08:59 AM)Sled21 Wrote: They're talking about our D line...

Yeah we get no pressure on the opposing QB and we give up a lot.

That's a recipe for disaster.

(12-16-2020, 10:04 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah we get no pressure on the opposing QB and we give up a lot.

That's a recipe for disaster.

Without Burrow we’re probably the worst team in the league. I don’t think we’d even beat the Jets.