We have a franchise QB, Franchise LT, and a Franchise WR. That's gives me confidence that we can compete in the future
However they have to fix the defense and Offensive Line for them to be a contender. I'm not confident they will do that.

(12-19-2020, 10:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is possible for this front office to build a championship team. Before the Steeler game where Dalton got injured the Bengals were 10-2 with three wins against playoff teams (Sea, KC, Pitt) We had the number 4 scoring offense and NUMBER ONE scoring defense. That was a legitimate championship level team.

The 2005 team did not have much defense, but that offense was pretty sick. That offense line was elite. It could have been the best in the league if they could have played together a while, but the very next year ('06) Braham and Levi Jones both had career altering injuries. Then the next year Willie Anderson had a major injury that he never fully recovered from. Mike Brown had just given all of those guys big contract extensions. Levi and Willie were the highest paid tackle duo in the league. That offense was set to be good for quite a few years, but the o-line was gutted in less than a year-and-a-half.

So that is at least two championship contender level teams in the last 15 years.

I believe we have the hardest piece to find with Burrow at QB. But I have zero faith in anyone on our coaching staff.

If they clean house and bring in some better coaches I think we can have a contender again within a year or two,

Did you ... did you just ... did you just declare your love for Joe Burrow?

(12-20-2020, 01:49 AM)J24 Wrote: We have a franchise QB, Franchise LT, and a Franchise WR. That's gives me confidence that we can compete in the future
However they have to fix the defense and Offensive Line for them to be a contender. I'm not confident they will do that.

We also have a franchise safety (I’d argue the best safety duo in the league- as far as complementary pieces go- one stout against the run/one stout against both). Bates is a very important piece in building a championship team.

Burrow and Bates are the only reason for any optimism. These two players can get us there. Any other players that decide to step up are just icing on the cake. We just need damn coaching. It’s that f***ing simple.

For me there are reasons to be optimistic by seeing how the Browns have turned things around. Watch them lose their next three games though.

Joe Burrow makes the games fun to watch, and they need to handle his return with kid gloves. Any kind of reinjury would be disastrous.

(12-19-2020, 09:24 PM)Benton Wrote: I get the angst and anger over this season. It's been a rough two years. And just when we looked like we were about to turn a corner, things got worse.

But I've got to admit, I'm optimistic about next season for a couple reasons.

1. Burrow. He was looking good when he went down and with the way things are, he's likely to come back around the start of the season as healthy as before.

2. Coordinators. Head coaching aside (and I realize in a few posts this is going to devolve into "we ain't going anywhere with ZT driving"), one of our biggest issues has been the coordinators. I don't see any way a few of the worst aren't gone.

But the big thing is...

3. Drafting. Our last draft was the best in a long time. And not just because we got Joe. Tee is looking good. Wilson is heading in the right direction. Akeem is going to take some time, but he's going to be decent. The rest, who knows? But the last I felt like we had four good picks by the end of the season was 2013. With another high pick and ZT's second year with the draft, I think we'll do good again.

4. FA. Last offseason we were aggressive for the first time in a long time. And this year, we're 5th or 6th overall in money available. I think we'll continue the spend (we've got a while before we have to worry about big resigning contracts).

Couldn't agree more.  I don't see the team as light years away, as their record or what is sure to be a pathetic effort Monday Night (Finley) would indicate.

I see a key acquisition (Thuney) and a couple draft picks on the offensive line (Sewell and another Guard) making a huge difference in protecting Joe as well as opening up the running game.  I'm hopeful for a speedster at WR that can take the proverbial top off the defense and get faster separation compared to the current crop, and I am optimistic that Tobin and co. see that need as well as they tried to find it with Ross, but he didn't pan out.

That offense could be very, very good.  I believe one of the first things Joe said to his dad after the injury was something to effet of:  "that is the best defensive front in the league and I had over 200 yards on them at the half".  He doesn't lack for anything.  Protect him a bit better, give him a speed option and I think this offense can score 30 on just about anyone.


The defense is a tougher sell.  I want to believe the LBs are capable of being really good if there was a better front before them.  The DTs the Bengals rolled out there this year were near the bottom of the league and it showed.   I don't want to assume that Wren and Tupou will come back after a year off as good or better than they left it, and I am investing heavily in the middle of the defensive line in the draft.  I would consider going back to back in Rds 2 and 3.  

Then we have the coaches.  On one hand, I say that a lab-created Frankencoach made with pieces of Lombardi,  Bellicheck, and Reid couldn't have won with this team and the roster they had after a few key injuries.  On the other hand, I saw coaches not able to respond to what the opponent was doing during the game.  When Burrow was getting killed week 2 and then again the next week against Philly, I was screaming at the TV:  "SCREEN THEM!!!", only to watch our slow-developing plays expose Burrow to more and more hits.  I think a 5 year old could have had a better game plan.

So, that's where I stand:  Optimistic the team can be good, but have little to no faith in the coaches.  With a better roster next year, I see them being able to win 6-8 games and that would likely be enough to save Taylor's job again.  This is why I am struggling with not firing him now.  I just haven't seen enough to think he can take a good roster to new heights.  Hopefully, you are right and the new coordinators make a big difference.  

(12-20-2020, 12:07 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...Its funny he blames the coordinators but not Zac. Zac calls the plays and refuses to give that up.

I'd feel much better about Burrow if he didnt have a catastrophic knee injury.

Any hope next year has to center around firing the entire staff.

Re: The draft - Joe is good. Higgins is good.

Wilson?  Not getting many snaps. Adeniji? Got yanked after 10 snaps. These guys arent anywhere near special yet. Maybe they develop...but they're not even average starting quality yet.

Catastrophic is what happened to Alex Smith, or maybe even Teddy Bridgewater.  Burrow's was just like Palmer's and he will be back even stronger because that dude will approach rehab like it is the Super Bowl.  

And we got legitimate playing time on every draft pick but Rd 7 (and I hope they get him more snaps before EOTY).  They may not have been Pro Bowlers, but that can't be overlooked.  In a season with no preseason, they did very well with Wilson, ADG, Adeniji, and Kareem on top of Burrow and Higgins.  

(12-20-2020, 12:11 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Jonah was actually a bit underwhelming. He was bad at run blocking. Maybe average pass blocking. Needs to improve.

Jonah is actually Bobby Hart with run blocking and pass blocking skills reversed. Hart can run block better than pass block.

I will be interested to see how Jonah grades out once he doesn't have the awful MJ next to him.  The guy rated higher than almost every first round tackle drafted in this past season.  I think a lot of people forget how long it took Andrew Whitworth to become a solid tackle on this team.  He is, right now, a very solid LT and even if they move him to RT, I can't help but think the guy is destined for greatness.  His injuries are worrisome, but I would bet after this offseason, he comes back bigger, stronger, and more determined.  

I love that guy's approach to his game and he will only get better with experience.  

They need to upgrade the O line for sure. I am not that high on Jonah as a LT so I am hoping Sewell will be there for the Bengals at pick 3 (I thought he would be there for sure but then I watched Fields vs N’Western). I think moving Jonah to G or RT and Sewell at LT will drastically improve the line. You get better at two positions by adding one player.
I am hoping the return of Reader and Waynes will help improve the D next year. There’s no doubt they just need to focus on drafting and signing linemen on both sides of the ball.
I am not optimistic that they will bring in a new HC.

(12-20-2020, 12:53 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Then why are you optimistic if they keep Zac and change coordinators? He'll call the plays still.

Really, Burrow is the only reason for optimism...and his busted knee likely will hurt his growth this offseason.

If I am ZT and I am trying to save my job, I save this for my end-of-year interview and say that is a change I am going to make next season...because in reality, changing it this season wouldn't have made a difference.  

Not trying to bust your balls, but I can't believe the skepticism about Burrow's recovery and future on here.  Did you guys not watch him at LSU after an injury cost him his shot at OSU?  Did you not watch him play at all this year?  I used to hold my breath every time Dalton cocked his arm...no lie....even did it towards the end of Palmer's career.  I would be afraid (when watching on TV, at the game I could see who he was targeting) as the ball sailed that it would end up in the wrong hands.   Not Burrow.  It is uncanny, but when he cocks his arm my heart starts pounding and I think "He's got someone" because he reads the defense so quickly and is so damn accurate. 

People will point to his QB rating and say he is "middle of the pack" when I watch guys like Paxton Lynch, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Jake Locker, Johnny Manziel, Jamies Winston,  Mitch Trubisky, Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Daniel Jones, and Dwayne Haskins all light it up for their respective college teams.  Many called them "elite prospects" and they were all drafted in the first round, some very early in the first round, but they went to poor teams and, thus far, largely busted.  Joe probably went to as bad a team as any.  The Bengals banked on a more mobile QB being able to survive their poor pass-blocking line.  His best weapon (supposedly) coming in to the season has been a massive disappointment.  Injuries piled up and his defense was so poor, he was almost always playing from behind forcing him in to passing situations with defenses teeing off on him.  Yet, he was still on pace to set a rookie record for passing yards.  

Joe Burrow will be ready week 1, and he will be better than ever.  NOTHING is going to prevent that kid from winning a Super Bowl.  Not the coaches, not the offensive line.....nothing.  

(12-20-2020, 11:35 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: If I am ZT and I am trying to save my job, I save this for my end-of-year interview and say that is a change I am going to make next season...because in reality, changing it this season wouldn't have made a difference.  

Not trying to bust your balls, but I can't believe the skepticism about Burrow's recovery and future on here.  Did you guys not watch him at LSU after an injury cost him his shot at OSU?  Did you not watch him play at all this year?  I used to hold my breath every time Dalton cocked his arm...no lie....even did it towards the end of Palmer's career.  I would be afraid (when watching on TV, at the game I could see who he was targeting) as the ball sailed that it would end up in the wrong hands.   Not Burrow.  It is uncanny, but when he cocks his arm my heart starts pounding and I think "He's got someone" because he reads the defense so quickly and is so damn accurate. 

People will point to his QB rating and say he is "middle of the pack" when I watch guys like Paxton Lynch, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Jake Locker, Johnny Manziel, Jamies Winston,  Mitch Trubisky, Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Daniel Jones, and Dwayne Haskins all light it up for their respective college teams.  Many called them "elite prospects" and they were all drafted in the first round, some very early in the first round, but they went to poor teams and, thus far, largely busted.  Joe probably went to as bad a team as any.  The Bengals banked on a more mobile QB being able to survive their poor pass-blocking line.  His best weapon (supposedly) coming in to the season has been a massive disappointment.  Injuries piled up and his defense was so poor, he was almost always playing from behind forcing him in to passing situations with defenses teeing off on him.  Yet, he was still on pace to set a rookie record for passing yards.  

Joe Burrow will be ready week 1, and he will be better than ever.  NOTHING is going to prevent that kid from winning a Super Bowl.  Not the coaches, not the offensive line.....nothing.  

I just don't see Taylor miraculously figuring it out. He's been totally clueless. Burrow is the only thing that make any bright spot this past year and even in that our passing offense was below average and could score.

Then, there is the run game. It regressed. Last year they somehow figured out how to run midway through the season. This year, they couldn't.

Maybe they make an offensive line so good that any plays Taylor calls works, but this is the Bengals. Everyone assumes they'll just give Thuney $15 million a year. I'm not so sure they'll do that.

(12-20-2020, 12:22 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I just don't see Taylor miraculously figuring it out. He's been totally clueless. Burrow is the only thing that make any bright spot this past year and even in that our passing offense was below average and could score.

Then, there is the run game. It regressed. Last year they somehow figured out how to run midway through the season. This year, they couldn't.

Maybe they make an offensive line so good that any plays Taylor calls works, but this is the Bengals. Everyone assumes they'll just give Thuney $15 million a year. I'm not so sure they'll do that.

I can't imagine a better use of their funds than Thuney.  You take your biggest weakness and replace it with the best in the position.  And, he is a local guy that grew up a Bengals fan and has won Super Bowls.

Right now, I would give up Geno's dollars for Thuney.  I would give up AJ Green's dollars (we all know he is gone anyways).  I would give up a combination of Shawn Williams, Gio Bernard, and CJ Uzomah (although I really like the last two guys) for Joe Thuney.  

I am very close to saying I would like WJIII walk and sign Thuney, but only because I don't believe WJIII wants to play here.  If we do this, CB becomes a top priority (after OT) in the draft.  Personally, I hope they sign WJIII and Alexander, but release Geno.  I think the rest of the lesser "sign their own" like the P, K, and LS won't prevent them from getting someone like Thuney.  

Reader ranked 35th which is Tier B in my Book.

Daniels and Waynes 48th and 49th. Bottom Tier B/Top Tier C.

They did spend a lot of money which I was happy with. This is what 2 times in the last 30 years that they actually signed a decent quantity of external free agents?

None of those guys are Tier A (Top 20-25) free agents though.

https://www.pff.com/nfl/free-agency?season=2020

(12-20-2020, 01:14 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I can't imagine a better use of their funds than Thuney.  You take your biggest weakness and replace it with the best in the position.  And, he is a local guy that grew up a Bengals fan and has won Super Bowls.

Right now, I would give up Geno's dollars for Thuney.  I would give up AJ Green's dollars (we all know he is gone anyways).  I would give up a combination of Shawn Williams, Gio Bernard, and CJ Uzomah (although I really like the last two guys) for Joe Thuney.  

I am very close to saying I would like WJIII walk and sign Thuney, but only because I don't believe WJIII wants to play here.  If we do this, CB becomes a top priority (after OT) in the draft.  Personally, I hope they sign WJIII and Alexander, but release Geno.  I think the rest of the lesser "sign their own" like the P, K, and LS won't prevent them from getting someone like Thuney.  

I feel like it would be a perfect fit too. Well, assuming there is a scheme fit.

Guards are VERY important in the modern NFL. The Bengals are still stuck on thinking Tackles are the premium position.

That said, the Browns upgraded their line and started to win this year. The Bengals seem to copy teams in the division, so hopefully they take notice of that.

I wonder if Alexander is interested in coming back? Might depend on coaches.

The Patriots are projected to have $94 million in cap space. They may tag Thuney.

(12-20-2020, 01:19 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Reader ranked 35th which is Tier B in my Book.

Daniels and Waynes 48th and 49th. Bottom Tier B/Top Tier C.

They did spend a lot of money which I was happy with. This is what 2 times in the last 30 years that they actually signed a decent quantity of external free agents?

None of those guys are Tier A (Top 20-25) free agents though.

https://www.pff.com/nfl/free-agency?season=2020

We signed AJ Green who was ranked 12th on the amazing expert list you rely one.

So that is at least one "Tier A" free agent we signed.

You know we're talking external free agents.

And spending $17 million for 419 yards receiving isn't exactly Tier A production.

As long as Mike Brown is in charge, I will not be optimistic.

As long as Brown family members, and their spouses, have jobs on the football side, I will not be optimistic.

As long as we have a terrible scouting team, and Duke is in charge of it, I will not be optimistic.

As long as Zach Taylor is the head coach, Turner has a job here, and Lou is DC, I will not be optimistic.

Maybe we could get by with Brown as the owner IF he killed all the nepotism & favrotism, fired the coaches (plus Duke), invested in a real scouting department, and hired a real GM. Until that happens, we are in Clippers or Redskin mode. The fish rots from the head.

(12-20-2020, 01:19 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Reader ranked 35th which is Tier B in my Book.

Daniels and Waynes 48th and 49th. Bottom Tier B/Top Tier C.

They did spend a lot of money which I was happy with. This is what 2 times in the last 30 years that they actually signed a decent quantity of external free agents?

None of those guys are Tier A (Top 20-25) free agents though.

https://www.pff.com/nfl/free-agency?season=2020

If you're going by that list then I don't know what to tell you.

James Williams and Marcus Mariota top 15 but Bridgewater is not.

Ha Ha Clinton-Dix above Leonard Williams? Dix got cut in training camp.

Eric Ebron over DERRICK HENRY. 

38 year old Cameron Wake over 26 year old Bud Dupree.

I could go on. Bottom line is Reeder and Waynes were 2 of the best (if not the best) FAs in their position. 

(12-20-2020, 01:32 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You know we're talking external free agents.

And spending $17 million for 419 yards receiving isn't exactly Tier A production.

But apparently production doesn't matter to you.

You would have been happier with one of those two back up QBs (Winston, Mariota) that were ranked in the top 20 you consider "Tier A".

(12-20-2020, 12:14 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It happens every offseason. We'll make minimal staff adjustments...bring in a tier b or c free agent. Draft some guys that the homers project as 7 quality starters. There will be threads about how our lines are our strength. How our wrs are 5 deep with talent.

Then the season starts and we suck.

Rinse. Repeat.

we just had our best FA off season ever lets hope it continues. Bell , Waynes XSF, Reader All good quality starters. Hoping rumors are true and we move on from Taylor.

(12-20-2020, 01:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But apparently production doesn't matter to you.

You would have been happier with one of those two back up QBs (Winston, Mariota) that were ranked in the top 20 you consider "Tier A".

I know I'd rather have that Tier B-C RB currently in Tennessee than either one of them.

I'm usually a fan of PFF, but I must admit this list has me scratching my head.