Fwiw, our best defensive years during the Mike Brown era came under Mike Zimmer. And here was our approach in the player types used for the a lot of the core of his rosters:

---Mid Round Picks: Geno Atkins, Michael Johnson, Robert Geathers, Domata Peko, George Iloka, Frostee Rucker, Shawn Williams, Pat Simms

---Cheap Vets/Reclamation Projects: Pacman Jones, Nate Clements, Reggie Nelson, Terrance Newman, Dahani Jones, Roy Williams, Chris Crocker, Thomas Howard, Tank Johnson, Manny Lawson, Gbril Wilson, Wallace Gillberry, James Harrison, Taylor Mays

---Late Round. UDFA's: Vontaze Burfict, Chinidu Ndukwe (sp?), Jonathan Fanene

That's a lot of guy who weren't drafted high, and we didn't spend a lot of money on. That's the bulk of what he worked with. Now let's look at the guys who don't fit that mold...

-Jonathan Joseph - Left after Zimmer's 2nd year, not a part of his elite D's.
-Keith Rivers - Left after Zimmer's 1st year, not a part of his elite D's.
-Rey Mauluga - Left after Zimmer's 2nd year, not a part of his elite D's
-Antwan Odom - Mid-tier FA. Hardly played for Zimmer, only appeared in 10 games during 1st 2 seasons. Not a part of his elite D's.

What your left with, for guys that either were paid a decent chunck of change, who we drafted high, that contributed to the '11, '12, '13 defenses, are two players: Leon Hall (1st round), and Carlos Dunlap (2nd round).

That's it. Mike Zimmer worked magic with no free agents given big deals, and two guys taken in the top 2 rounds (Hall and Dunlap).

What this tells me is simple. Find the right coach, who can create the right scheme, and coaches the right way. Then find the right players to fit that scheme. That's more important then talent.

We have the following building blocks on D: Jesse Bates, DJ Reader, Mackenzie Alexander, Sam Hubbard, Carl Lawson, and maybe Wilson. That's not that bad. Fill out the rest with guys similar to the above and bring in the right coaching staff to maximize talent.

IMHO, you can much easier get by with less talent on D than on offense. That's why I'm in agreement with OP. Load up on offense and give Joe all the help and toys he needs. If we can be elite or close to it on that side of the ball then that's going to go much further than trying to load up on D.

(12-21-2020, 04:01 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Seems one common thing for the Bengals over the Mike Brown 30 years of ownership are good WR's and RB's. And we're duking it out with the Lions for worst record over that span.

Speaking of the Lions, who do you think of? Sanders? Magatron? Herman Moore? Lots of good WR's and RB's.

See a trend?

The Steelers? Generally good lines...although not early in Bens career. But good front 7 on defense pretty consistently. Their CB's usually aren't spectacular, but they can all tackle.

The Browns? Added lineman in the offseason and have a PFF Top 5 line and suddenly winning.

Exactly....as someone else noted, a good pass rush helps average to slightly above average DBs.

Also, look at our best years under Son of Paul. Good lines.

(12-21-2020, 05:33 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fwiw, our best defensive years during the Mike Brown era came under Mike Zimmer.  And here was our approach in the player types used for the a lot of the core of his rosters:

---Mid Round Picks: Geno Atkins, Michael Johnson, Robert Geathers, Domata Peko, George Iloka, Frostee Rucker, Shawn Williams, Pat Simms

---Cheap Vets/Reclamation Projects:  Pacman Jones, Nate Clements, Reggie Nelson, Terrance Newman, Dahani Jones, Roy Williams, Chris Crocker, Thomas Howard, Tank Johnson, Manny Lawson, Gbril Wilson, Wallace Gillberry, James Harrison, Taylor Mays

---Late Round. UDFA's:  Vontaze Burfict, Chinidu Ndukwe (sp?), Jonathan Fanene

That's a lot of guy who weren't drafted high, and we didn't spend a lot of money on.  That's the bulk of what he worked with.  Now let's look at the guys who don't fit that mold...

-Jonathan Joseph - Left after Zimmer's 2nd year, not a part of his elite D's.
-Keith Rivers - Left after Zimmer's 1st year, not a part of his elite D's.
-Rey Mauluga - Left after Zimmer's 2nd year, not a part of his elite D's
-Antwan Odom - Mid-tier FA. Hardly played for Zimmer, only appeared in 10 games during 1st 2 seasons. Not a part of his elite D's.

What your left with, for guys that either were paid a decent chunck of change, who we drafted high, that contributed to the '11, '12, '13 defenses, are two players:  Leon Hall (1st round), and Carlos Dunlap (2nd round).

That's it.  Mike Zimmer worked magic with no free agents given big deals, and two guys taken in the top 2 rounds (Hall and Dunlap).

What this tells me is simple.  Find the right coach, who can create the right scheme, and coaches the right way.  Then find the right players to fit that scheme.  That's more important then talent.

We have the following building blocks on D:  Jesse Bates, DJ Reader, Mackenzie Alexander, Sam Hubbard, Carl Lawson, and maybe Wilson.  That's not that bad.  Fill out the rest with guys similar to the above and bring in the right coaching staff to maximize talent.

IMHO, you can much easier get by with less talent on D than on offense.  That's why I'm in agreement with OP.  Load up on offense and give Joe all the help and toys he needs.  If we can be elite or close to it on that side of the ball then that's going to go much further than trying to load up on D.

The major flaw in this reasoning is it's hard to hang on to an elite level defensive coordinator for more than a couple successful seasons. Now, if you hire a defensive minded head coach, you can get away with this strategy. Zimmer is re-tooling his defense in Minn. right now with a lot of mid round picks.

Most top end defenses have a lot of high picks invested in the defensive line. Just look at the Steelers, the 9ers, Rams, etc. The Chargers have an up and coming defense built with two high draft picks that rush the passer. I could go on.

The quickest way to turn this defense around is to invest in the pass rush with our top picks. If we miss out on Sewell, I would give a hard look at the top OLB/DE's. If they hit the character checkmarks, have elite athelticism, and great tape/production...

Getting an elite level pass rusher (who's disciplined against the run as well) would improve this defense more than adding any other position.