So many outsiders and fans wanting to change and fire everyone.

Says alot that Burrow and Boyd, two of our best players don't want a new coach and believe in zac. We need consistency and when you fire coaches too early (see Cleveland) it's hard and the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

I'm alone here but I also agree with Mike browns message and like what we are building. We need to get healthy and add more free agents which it sounds like they are going to do and will be fine.

Not sure if Lou is gone or not, I see he is taking alot of heat from fans. Is he a good DC? I don't know. I do know he did well with what he had to work with, we had 3rd stringers, practice squad guys out there on D vs the ravens no matter what your not stopping Lamar with those players. We had maybe 3 good players on D in our last game, not enough to stop the ravens. When M. Hunt is looking like one of our best players its not a good sign.

Even in the Texans game, we gave up alot of rushing but you got to give up something in order to not let Watson beat you, especially with our banged up defense, I think we did ok.

Zac has been calling good games as of late, team sucked as a whole Sunday though. But he was getting all the praise the last few weeks now a bad loss fans turn again. But I was expecting this response from fans would happen if we got whooped Sunday, we fans are emotional. As a Sacramento Kings fan we started off 3-0 everyone was hyped about the coach players and thinking we're a playoff team now we lose a few games.... the coach should be fired, trade everyone etc its just funny really lol

To anyone still bringing up gase record vs Taylor. Both are different. Not sure if the jets had as many injuries but gase has been a head coach before he's expected to do better right out the gate. Taylor wasn't, if he did cool even better but he's a first time HC and they were already prepared to give him some leash, even more so with all the injuries.

Looking forward to free agency and the draft. Who dey!

(01-04-2021, 06:34 PM)Amalone002 Wrote: So many outsiders and fans wanting to change and fire everyone.  

Says alot that Burrow and Boyd, two of our best players don't want a new coach and believe in zac. We need consistency and when you fire coaches too early (see Cleveland) it's hard and the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

I'm alone here but I also agree with Mike browns message and like what we are building.  We need to get healthy and add more free agents which it sounds like they are going to do and will be fine.  

Not sure if Lou is gone or not,  I see he is taking alot of heat from fans. Is he a good DC? I don't know.  I do know he did well with what he had to work with,  we had 3rd stringers, practice squad guys out there on D vs the ravens no matter what you can your not stopping Lamar with those players.  We had maybe 3 good players on D in our last game,  not enough to stop the ravens. When M. Hunt is looking like one of our best players its not a good sign.  

Even in the Texans game, we gave up alot of rushing but you got to give up something in order to not let Watson beat you,  especially with our banged up defense we did ok.

Zac has been calling good games as of late, team sucked ss a whole Sunday though.  But he was getting all the praise the last few weeks now a bad loss fans turn again.  But I was aware it would happen if we got whooped Sunday,  we fans are emotional.  As a Sacramento Kings fab we started off 3-0 everyone was hyped about the coach players and thinking we're a playoff team now we lose a few games.... the coach should be fired,  trade everyone etc its just funny really lol

To anyone still bringing up gase record vs Taylor.  Both are different.  Not sure if the jets had as many injuries but gase has been a head coach before he's expected to do better right out the gate.  Taylor wasn't,  if he did cool even better but he's a first time HC and they were already prepared to give him some leash, even more so with all the injuries.  

Looking forward to free agency and the draft.  Who dey!

You definitely aren't alone!  I completely agree with all this!!! Rep!

(01-04-2021, 06:36 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: You definitely aren't alone!  I completely agree with all this!!! Rep!

Thank you.  Not many of us lol but I think we're headed in the right direction for sure. 

(01-04-2021, 06:34 PM)Amalone002 Wrote: So many outsiders and fans wanting to change and fire everyone.  

Says alot that Burrow and Boyd, two of our best players don't want a new coach and believe in zac. We need consistency and when you fire coaches too early (see Cleveland) it's hard and the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

I'm alone here but I also agree with Mike browns message and like what we are building.  We need to get healthy and add more free agents which it sounds like they are going to do and will be fine.  

Not sure if Lou is gone or not,  I see he is taking alot of heat from fans. Is he a good DC? I don't know.  I do know he did well with what he had to work with,  we had 3rd stringers, practice squad guys out there on D vs the ravens no matter what you can your not stopping Lamar with those players.  We had maybe 3 good players on D in our last game,  not enough to stop the ravens. When M. Hunt is looking like one of our best players its not a good sign.  

Even in the Texans game, we gave up alot of rushing but you got to give up something in order to not let Watson beat you,  especially with our banged up defense we did ok.

Zac has been calling good games as of late, team sucked ss a whole Sunday though.  But he was getting all the praise the last few weeks now a bad loss fans turn again.  But I was aware it would happen if we got whooped Sunday,  we fans are emotional.  As a Sacramento Kings fab we started off 3-0 everyone was hyped about the coach players and thinking we're a playoff team now we lose a few games.... the coach should be fired,  trade everyone etc its just funny really lol

To anyone still bringing up gase record vs Taylor.  Both are different.  Not sure if the jets had as many injuries but gase has been a head coach before he's expected to do better right out the gate.  Taylor wasn't,  if he did cool even better but he's a first time HC and they were already prepared to give him some leash, even more so with all the injuries.  

Looking forward to free agency and the draft.  Who dey!

Pleeeeeeaaaaase stop saying that Boyd and Burrow and any other player who says publicly they believe/support their coach means the players are all-in on Zac or would be upset if the HC was replaced.  Please.  You cannot read into those comments.  Some guys want to stir the pot enough to get dropped or traded like Los did.  But most of them will say the right thing, because, well, it's the right thing.  And maybe they do also support Zac 100%.  But we don't know that, and I'm getting tired of hearing how our guys love Zac so much so we should too.  

You know what I bet Boyd and Burrow like even more than Zac?  Winning.  Winning enough to go the playoffs.  Winning in the playoffs.  Playing a Superbowl.  Winning a Lombardi trophy.  

You know what I expected from Zac?  Not a 5 year learning curve and slow progression where no one knew his ceiling.  Coming off a tired 6-win performance from Merv, I expected Zac to take the team with some energy and knock out 7 or 8 wins the first year and be in the playoff picture this year.  Injuries aren't an excuse.  Losing one-score games isn't an excuse.  

And, the points still remain that Zac doesn't do anything to change and try to improve.  If he'd started out and realized he was in over his head and needed to hand off play calling duties, I'd say he learned something and grew.  If his assistants were keeping the team up and he replaced them I'd say he was striving for excellence.  But the guy hasn't done crap in 2 full years.  It's just the same thing over and over.  I'm not sure where anyone can point to his effort over 32 games and show where the improvement has been.  Learning curve?  There is no curve. It's a learning flat.  Which means there's no learning.  Which means there's no improvement.  

(01-04-2021, 06:34 PM)Amalone002 Wrote: So many outsiders and fans wanting to change and fire everyone.  

Says alot that Burrow and Boyd, two of our best players don't want a new coach and believe in zac. We need consistency and when you fire coaches too early (see Cleveland) it's hard and the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

I'm alone here but I also agree with Mike browns message and like what we are building.  We need to get healthy and add more free agents which it sounds like they are going to do and will be fine.  

Not sure if Lou is gone or not,  I see he is taking alot of heat from fans. Is he a good DC? I don't know.  I do know he did well with what he had to work with,  we had 3rd stringers, practice squad guys out there on D vs the ravens no matter what your not stopping Lamar with those players.  We had maybe 3 good players on D in our last game,  not enough to stop the ravens. When M. Hunt is looking like one of our best players its not a good sign.  

Even in the Texans game, we gave up alot of rushing but you got to give up something in order to not let Watson beat you,  especially with our banged up defense, I think we did ok.

Zac has been calling good games as of late, team sucked as a whole Sunday though.  But he was getting all the praise the last few weeks now a bad loss fans turn again.  But I was expecting this response from fans would happen if we got whooped Sunday,  we fans are emotional.  As a Sacramento Kings fan we started off 3-0 everyone was hyped about the coach players and thinking we're a playoff team now we lose a few games.... the coach should be fired,  trade everyone etc its just funny really lol

To anyone still bringing up gase record vs Taylor.  Both are different.  Not sure if the jets had as many injuries but gase has been a head coach before he's expected to do better right out the gate.  Taylor wasn't,  if he did cool even better but he's a first time HC and they were already prepared to give him some leash, even more so with all the injuries.  

Looking forward to free agency and the draft.  Who dey!

The last 3 decades of proof says that the odds of a coach with Zac's record turning things around are zilch. 

(01-04-2021, 06:42 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: Pleeeeeeaaaaase stop saying that Boyd and Burrow and any other player who says publicly they believe/support their coach means the players are all-in on Zac or would be upset if the HC was replaced.  Please.  You cannot read into those comments.  Some guys want to stir the pot enough to get dropped or traded like Los did.  But most of them will say the right thing, because, well, it's the right thing.  And maybe they do also support Zac 100%.  But we don't know that, and I'm getting tired of hearing how our guys love Zac so much so we should too.  

You know what I bet Boyd and Burrow like even more than Zac?  Winning.  Winning enough to go the playoffs.  Winning in the playoffs.  Playing a Superbowl.  Winning a Lombardi trophy.  

You know what I expected from Zac?  Not a 5 year learning curve and slow progression where no one knew his ceiling.  Coming off a tired 6-win performance from Merv, I expected Zac to take the team with some energy and knock out 7 or 8 wins the first year and be in the playoff picture this year.  Injuries aren't an excuse.  Losing one-score games isn't an excuse.  

And, the points still remain that Zac doesn't do anything to change and try to improve.  If he'd started out and realized he was in over his head and needed to hand off play calling duties, I'd say he learned something and grew.  If his assistants were keeping the team up and he replaced them I'd say he was striving for excellence.  But the guy hasn't done crap in 2 full years.  It's just the same thing over and over.  I'm not sure where anyone can point to his effort over 32 games and show where the improvement has been.  Learning curve?  There is no curve. It's a learning flat.  Which means there's no learning.  Which means there's no improvement.  

Not trying to argue, necessarily, BUT.... what else are we expected to do with what they're saying?  I think it takes a larger mental leap to assume anything else versus taking them at their word.  A good leader inspires others, and it seems that ZT is inspiring his team.  I just don't think we've had the talent yet to back it up.  

If you take Bill B. and throw him into a team to coach like Vanderbilt that has to play OSU, he may have his playeres believing it's their time and play hard for him and the team, but they're gonna get wrecked.  The talent just ain't there yet.  Now, come back in a few years and you might notice Vandy in the CFP.

(01-04-2021, 06:43 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: The last 3 decades of proof says that the odds of a coach with Zac's record turning things around are zilch. 

We'll take those odds!  

I don't have to put any money in, though, right?  

Conspiracy theory: The Bengals are having interns do online damage control by saying positive stuff about Zac.

(01-04-2021, 06:50 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: Not trying to argue, necessarily, BUT.... what else are we expected to do with what they're saying?  I think it takes a larger mental leap to assume anything else versus taking them at their word.  A good leader inspires others, and it seems that ZT is inspiring his team.  I just don't think we've had the talent yet to back it up.  

If you take Bill B. and throw him into a team to coach like Vanderbilt that has to play OSU, he may have his playeres believing it's their time and play hard for him and the team, but they're gonna get wrecked.  The talent just ain't there yet.  Now, come back in a few years and you might notice Vandy in the CFP.

I'm not sure of your background / work experiences, but I can tell you that many, many employees I've worked with over the years have "said the right thing" publicly because they don't want to burn themselves in an industry where people talk to each other and networking is important.  I'm not saying that these two (or any other) players don't like Zac.  But I'm without a doubt not going to take these statements to the bank as some kind of proof that these guys are all in on Zac and somehow that makes him a better coach.  It's just grasping at straws because there's nothing else to look at positively about this situation.  

You've pointed out already today that you're pumped about FA and the draft and what it'll mean for next year.  Great, but those happen regardless of who's coaching.  And they're both unknowns at this point, so other than being hopeful about them, there's nothing concrete to look at yet for improvement.  What it is exactly about Zac and the trajectory he's shown in two full seasons that gives hope for next year to be better?   What concrete thing has happened or been shown that gives optimism?  

(01-04-2021, 06:55 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Conspiracy theory: The Bengals are having interns do online damage control by saying positive stuff about Zac.

LOL yes, I was hired by the Bengals to join a message board on their website, and then move to this site in 2015 all to wait for ZT to have two bad years.  

7+ years in, still an intern not gettin paid.  But the library has internet, so it's all good.

Ahh the new generation. Before reality sets in.

(01-04-2021, 06:56 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: I'm not sure of your background / work experiences, but I can tell you that many, many employees I've worked with over the years have "said the right thing" publicly because they don't want to burn themselves in an industry where people talk to each other and networking is important.  I'm not saying that these two (or any other) players don't like Zac.  But I'm without a doubt not going to take these statements to the bank as some kind of proof that these guys are all in on Zac and somehow that makes him a better coach.  It's just grasping at straws because there's nothing else to look at positively about this situation.  

You've pointed out already today that you're pumped about FA and the draft and what it'll mean for next year.  Great, but those happen regardless of who's coaching.  And they're both unknowns at this point, so other than being hopeful about them, there's nothing concrete to look at yet for improvement.  What it is exactly about Zac and the trajectory he's shown in two full seasons that gives hope for next year to be better?   What concrete thing has happened or been shown that gives optimism?  

That's true, I'm in middle management and can tell when I'm being told a line, usually.  But some probably fool me.  

This year, I thought the offensive schemes started to show great improvement.  One thing I've enjoyed with ZT versus ML-led Bengals is not only halftime adjustments, but series adjustments too.   Under Marvin, we tried the same thing over and over.  At least with ZT, we try different things with the intent of finding what works.  

(01-04-2021, 06:56 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: I'm not sure of your background / work experiences, but I can tell you that many, many employees I've worked with over the years have "said the right thing" publicly because they don't want to burn themselves in an industry where people talk to each other and networking is important.  I'm not saying that these two (or any other) players don't like Zac.  But I'm without a doubt not going to take these statements to the bank as some kind of proof that these guys are all in on Zac and somehow that makes him a better coach.  It's just grasping at straws because there's nothing else to look at positively about this situation.  

You've pointed out already today that you're pumped about FA and the draft and what it'll mean for next year.  Great, but those happen regardless of who's coaching.  And they're both unknowns at this point, so other than being hopeful about them, there's nothing concrete to look at yet for improvement.  What it is exactly about Zac and the trajectory he's shown in two full seasons that gives hope for next year to be better?   What concrete thing has happened or been shown that gives optimism?  

True that they could be saying the "right thing "publicly , but Burrow said this about Zac since training camp so its not news to me. They could say nothing if they wanted to,  but they chose to say something.  

(01-04-2021, 07:00 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: That's true, I'm in middle management and can tell when I'm being told a line, usually.  But some probably fool me.  

This year, I thought the offensive schemes started to show great improvement.  One thing I've enjoyed with ZT versus ML-led Bengals is not only halftime adjustments, but series adjustments too.   Under Marvin, we tried the same thing over and over.  At least with ZT, we try different things with the intent of finding what works.  

Let's talk about halftime adjustments.  They averaged 3.3 points in the 3rd quarter this season.  They finished in 31st place for 3rd quarter scoring.  If the offense was making positive adjustments at halftime, wouldn't that point total have been higher?  They averaged 3.8 points in the 1st quarter this year (26th place), so not great by any stretch, but a definite decline after halftime.  

(01-04-2021, 06:52 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: We'll take those odds!  

I don't have to put any money in, though, right?  

The bad part is that we ALL put money in.  Time is money.  Merchandise is money.  Your cable bill is money....and so on and so forth.  The Brown family is very rich due to the dedication and hard-earned wages of the fans.  

Everybody from management, to the coaches, to the fans want to win.  However, you are what your record says you are.  
Another poor decision by Mike Brown.  What else is new?

(01-04-2021, 07:12 PM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: Let's talk about halftime adjustments.  They averaged 3.3 points in the 3rd quarter this season.  They finished in 31st place for 3rd quarter scoring.  If the offense was making positive adjustments at halftime, wouldn't that point total have been higher?  They averaged 3.8 points in the 1st quarter this year (26th place), so not great by any stretch, but a definite decline after halftime.  

The adjustments weren’t successful is what that tells me. But the eye test watching each game showed we were adjusting

This has to be a joke.

Anyone with any knowledge of NFL football knows that both coaches and players always have to put a positive spin on their public comments. It is EXTREMELY rare to hear any coach say that his team sucks and can't win. It is also EXTREMELY rare to hear players say that their coaches suck and need to be fired.

Yet this year we had multiple Bengal players criticize the coaches. Dunlap was the most obvious, but both Shawn Williams and darius Phillips accused the coaches of "wasting talent" on social media. Our best defensive player, Jesse Bates< said that he struggled in 2019 because of communication problems with the coaches.

And I don't see how anyone can say our offense was looking good this year. Through the first 11 weeks with Burrow starting the Bengals were 30th in yards per play, 25th in points scored, and 20th in yards.

We had some injuries on defense, but over the first three games when McKenzie and Reader were healthy we were 24th in yards allowed.

(01-04-2021, 07:16 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: The adjustments weren’t successful is what that tells me. But the eye test watching each game showed we were adjusting

So then back to my question:  what has Zac shown in terms of progress that gives one hope for next season?  

The problem is so clear to lifelong fans like myself, over 40 years, and the hayday was the 80's!! The team seems to lack direction, it's simple: we had a dynamic offense in 2004-2008, we needed a few pieces on defense to get us over the top, but we signed over the hill washed up second tier guys we sat idle. Again 2011-15, great offenses, no defense!!! Now with an offensive minded coach we shore up the Defense, but basically ignore what was our biggest weakness the O-Line!!! The fans know/see these things, but the organization ignores them!! This team needs to cut dead weight contracts and be truly active in FA again to make me feel better!! We have the $$$ to get help in FA, do it! Then always draft BPA never draft for need!

(01-04-2021, 07:16 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: The adjustments weren’t successful is what that tells me. But the eye test watching each game showed we were adjusting

Bad adjustment are worse than no adjustments when you are winning most of your games and making the playoffs with no adjustments.