(01-05-2021, 01:16 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: Let me answer Sled and my question, which I know you were specifically avoiding.  He was thrown to 53 times and had 40 receptions.  

That’s over 75% catch success rate.  

Kelce, for example, was targeted 145 times and had 105 receptions.... for a 72% catch success rate.


What else do you guys have to say?

Yards Per Reception:
Sample - 8.7
Kelce - 13.5

Drew Sample was 88th in the league amongst TEs in terms of YPR.
https://fantasyfootballers.org/te-tight-end-nfl-stats/


The reality is many fans nowadays want TEs to be primarily pass catchers, not blockers.

(01-05-2021, 01:20 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: The stats suggest he’s better at catching the ball than the great Kelce.  

This a Zac Taylor supporter. 

This is what they bring to the table when talking football.  Keep that in mind.

(01-05-2021, 01:16 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Arguing that Taylor should not have taken him is a totally different argument than saying he's a bum for not catching passes that are not thrown his way.

He was targeted 53 times. He should be able to produce more than one TD and 300 something yards on that many targets.

(01-05-2021, 01:16 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: Let me answer Sled and my question, which I know you were specifically avoiding. He was thrown to 53 times and had 40 receptions.

That’s over 75% catch success rate.

Kelce, for example, was targeted 145 times and had 105 receptions.... for a 72% catch success rate.


What else do you guys have to say?

LOL

Because Kelce averaged 13.5 yards per reception this season. Ofc his catch% is going to be a little lower than a guy who catches everything within 5-8 yards.

(01-05-2021, 01:20 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: And if Sample was thrown the ball more, we may say the same thing of him.  The stats suggest he’s better at catching the ball than the great Kelce.  

(01-05-2021, 01:30 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This a Zac Taylor supporter. 

This is what they bring to the table when talking football.  Keep that in mind.

So at this point, I’ve established stats to prove he’s not a bum.  He’s caught 75% of passes thrown his way and is great at blocking.  


My being a ZT supporter being used as a means of saying I have no idea what I’m talking about was a bit ridiculous, but I did forget the ninja emote when I said that Sample is better at catching the ball than Kelce.  You can read my reply to Tecmo as well.

(01-05-2021, 01:17 PM)Synric Wrote: In an outside zone run blocking scheme a TE-Y that is athletic enough to down block ends and get out into space to reach linebackers along with the ability to run flares on naked boots is extremely important.

It's also a big reason they went out and got James Casey as a TE coach.

Plenty of TE’s taken in 5th round and later are athletic enough to do what Sample is doing.

(01-05-2021, 01:30 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This a Zac Taylor supporter. 

This is what they bring to the table when talking football.  Keep that in mind.

As opposed to those haters of Taylor and Lou who change their mind weekly according to the results on Sunday. Fire them, they are horrible. Oh wait, maybe their not as bad as we thought. Fire them, they are horrible. Great game, I'm willing to give them another shot.  It's freakin comical. At least some of us are consistent.

(01-05-2021, 01:46 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Plenty of TE’s taken in 5th round and later are athletic enough to do what Sample is doing.

This is false information. 

After the 3rd round every position the chances they become solid NFL contributors drops drastically. For every TE you can name I can name 3 that don't make it. That's the nature of the beast. Even second round picks are closer to 40% chance of actual success.

The obsession on where Drew Sample was drafted is silly. He does what the Bengals ask him to do which is block, flares, and short hitches & outs. They will line him wide to create space for inside receivers. People want him to be a TE-F he is not.

(01-05-2021, 01:45 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: So at this point, I’ve established stats to prove he’s not a bum.  He’s caught 75% of passes thrown his way and is great at blocking.  

No you haven't.

Honest question: Have you actually seen the catches he makes?

The majority of them the ball travels all of 5 years and he's got no one around him.  No one's actually covering him.  They're dump-offs and screens.  They throw the ball 4 to 6 yards and he lumbers ahead for another 2-4 yards.  These catches make up like 90% of his targets.

Do you not understand that every single Tight End in the league would have a high catch % if this was their workload?  Seriously, you could find UDFA's and sign vets off their couch who can come in at catch 70%+ of this balls.

I can only think of two tough catches he made all year (off the top of my head, I may be missing one or two).  He made one really nice catch on the sideline where he pull it in with one hand. (Best play for him BY FAR)  He made another across the middle about 10 yards down the field and he took a shot and held on to the ball.

The 2nd one isn't even that great, it's something a lot of Tight Ends are routinely asked to do.  I'm not dismissing him for making it, just pointing out that rarity in which he's asked to do so.

I don't think anyone who's seen all of these catches will dispute anything I've said.  I think I've described his workload accurately.  You can not point to catch % with his making catches that everyone makes.  There's nothing impressive about catching a dump-off or check-down is space.  Catch % becomes a worthwile stat when you're making plays in coverage and down the field, where difficulty actually factors in.

(01-05-2021, 01:58 PM)Synric Wrote: This is false information. 

After the 3rd round every position the chances they become solid NFL contributors drops drastically. For every TE you can name I can name 3 that don't make it. That's the nature of the beast. Even second round picks are closer to 40% chance of actual success.

The obsession on where Drew Sample was drafted is silly. He does what the Bengals ask him to do which is block, flares, and short hitches & outs. They will line him wide to create space for inside receivers. People want him to be a TE-F he is not.

The part that kills me is that people are so obsessed with where he was taken that they don’t realize that someone was going to take him shortly after we did and so Zac wanted him and pulled the trigger to get the man he wanted. And it turns out that it wasn’t a bad call, given that he blocks really well and catches 75% of what’s thrown his way.  I don’t think it’s a leap of faith to say as he matures and as our OL gets better, he’ll likely start becoming a bigger part of the passing offense as well.  

(01-05-2021, 01:58 PM)Synric Wrote: This is false information. 

After the 3rd round every position the chances they become solid NFL contributors drops drastically. For every TE you can name I can name 3 that don't make it. That's the nature of the beast. Even second round picks are closer to 40% chance of actual success.

The obsession on where Drew Sample was drafted is silly. He does what the Bengals ask him to do which is block, flares, and short hitches & outs. They will line him wide to create space for inside receivers. People want him to be a TE-F he is not.

It’s really not. The pick was almost universally panned, and received mostly bad-mediocre grades across the board. It’s not just a handful of fans being upset.

(01-05-2021, 02:00 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: No you haven't.

Honest question: Have you actually seen the catches he makes?

The majority of them the ball travels all of 5 years and he's got no one around him.  No one's actually covering him.  They're dump-offs and screens.  They throw the ball 4 to 6 yards and he lumbers ahead for another 2-4 yards.  These catches make up like 90% of his targets.

Do you not understand that every single Tight End in the league would have a high catch % if this was their workload?  Seriously, you could find UDFA's and sign vets off their couch who can come in at catch 70%+ of this balls.

I can only think of two tough catches he made all year (off the top of my head, I may be missing one or two).  He made one really nice catch on the sideline where he pull it in with one hand. (Best play for him BY FAR)  He made another across the middle about 10 yards down the field and he took a shot and held on to the ball.

The 2nd one isn't even that great, it's something a lot of Tight Ends are routinely asked to do.  I'm not dismissing him for making it, just pointing out that rarity in which he's asked to do so.

I don't think anyone who's seen all of these catches will dispute anything I've said.  I think I've described his workload accurately.  You can not point to catch % with his making catches that everyone makes.  There's nothing impressive about catching a dump-off or check-down is space.  Catch % becomes a worthwile stat when you're making plays in coverage and down the field, where difficulty actually factors in.

I certainly have.  He makes the most of any and all opportunities that come his way.  Please, fault him for that.  Clearly if you go out there and do your job exceptionally well, you’re a bum.  WELL DONE!  You’re so good at this.

Also, I only had to point to catch % because you conveniently left it out.  I get it though, you need your convictions to be solid and believable.  No reason to let facts get in the way.

If Sample was selected in the 5th or even 4th round he would have been an ok pick. He has up to this point not put up numbers like a 2nd round pick should. Will he ever ? I have serious doubts.

Or in other words it was a bad pick, bottom line. Just like our 4th round pick that draft R. Finley.

(01-05-2021, 01:49 PM)Sled21 Wrote: As opposed to those haters of Taylor and Lou who change their mind weekly according to the results on Sunday. Fire them, they are horrible. Oh wait, maybe their not as bad as we thought. Fire them, they are horrible. Great game, I'm willing to give them another shot.  It's freakin comical. At least some of us are consistent.

I haven't see too many "Zac Taylor haters" change their mind from week to week.  In fact, most of them were ridiculed by a few people for not enjoying the wins as much, because they were worried about him keeping his job.

Damn, twenty pages!

(01-05-2021, 02:02 PM)wildcatnku24 Wrote: The part that kills me is that people are so obsessed with where he was taken that they don’t realize that someone was going to take him shortly after we did and so Zac wanted him and pulled the trigger to get the man he wanted. And it turns out that it wasn’t a bad call, given that he blocks really well and catches 75% of what’s thrown his way.  I don’t think it’s a leap of faith to say as he matures and as our OL gets better, he’ll likely start becoming a bigger part of the passing offense as well.  

If the Bengals can get the run game going especially out of 2TE sets it will open up more routes for the Y even the Y-Seam, Y-Cross, Y-Corner. Alot of the deeper Y routes are off play action.

(01-05-2021, 02:06 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: If Sample was selected in the 5th or even 4th round he would have been an ok pick. He has up to this point not put up numbers like a 2nd round pick should. Will he ever ? I have serious doubts.

Or in other words it was a bad pick, bottom line. Just like our 4th round pick that draft R. Finley.

And Michael Jordan. We got some real gems in that draft.

(01-05-2021, 02:06 PM)wildcatnku2 Wrote:   Clearly if you go out there and do your job exceptionally well, you’re a bum. 

I'm done.  This isn't even worth my time.  :andy:

(01-05-2021, 02:09 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And Michael Jordan. We got some real gems in that draft.

Let’s see how our new OL coach develops him.  It’s not uncommon for a fourth round prospect to take some time to develop.  He likely shouldn’t have been started like he was, but we can blame Turner for that one.

There was a lot of reasonable hype surrounding the pick at the time, too.  See link below:

https://www.landgrantholyland.com/2019/4/27/18512155/3-reasons-to-be-excited-about-michael-jordan-being-drafted-by