(02-12-2021, 11:18 AM)ochocincos Wrote: While I don't disagree with you that TEs can be found after Rd 1 (as you indicate, plenty have), you make it sound like the 1st round TEs are terrible and so many of the guys after are great.

Irv Smith - 311 yards, 2 TDs in 2019. 365 yards, 5 TDs in 2020. I wouldn't call him a "very solid above average TE." That's Drew Sample production.
Dawson Knox - 388 yards, 2 TDs in 2019. 288 yards, 3 TDs in 2020. Again, not very good either. He had some good catches, but he's not a featured member of that offense.
Cole Kmet - 243 yards, 2 TDs. That's worse than Sample.

On the flip side...
Hockenson - 367 yards, 2 TDs as a rookie, 723 yards, 6 TDs in 2020. Hockenson had more production in his 2020 season alone than Smith and Knox have had in two years.
Fant - 562, 3 as a rookie. 673, 3 in 2020. Yet again, way more productive than Smith, Knox, or Kmet.

OJ Howard has been plagued with the injury bug like Eifert, but he's been productive when healthy.
1602 yards and 14 TDs in 42 games is solid. But Howard was more raw coming out of college compared to a guy like Pitts, but he went in the 1st round because of his elite profile. 

Hurst should not have gone in 1st round. My favorite TE in that draft class was Mark Andrews. I really wanted him in Rd 2 or 3. 

Day 2 has been the gem of TEs in recent years, but they all had their flaws coming into the draft, which is why they didn't go in the 1st. Whether it be lack of production, non-elite speed, lack of height, played at a small school/conference, whatever. Pitts is considered so high because he checks off all the boxes for what you would want in a TE in the 1st round. Size, speed, athleticism, high profile school and conference, proven dominant production.

If I was to put money on any TE in this upcoming draft class to become good aside from Pitts, I'd only consider Freiermuth or Brevin Jordan. I think both go in Rd 2. Tre McKitty might become something, but I can easily see him not. He's a perfect early Rd 4 pick.

What’s your take on Charlie Kolar? I like him in like 3 or 4.

(02-12-2021, 12:31 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: What’s your take on Charlie Kolar? I like him in like 3 or 4.

I like Kolar too but he's returning to Iowa for 2021. I had him as a Rd 3 pick in this draft but I can see him being higher next year. Guy has produced very well. I'd prefer an upgrade at TE this year if possible, but next year might be the sweet spot. Sample will have gone through his 3rd year, which I feel is when most players hit their max development.

EDIT - Why I don't think Kolar will get to 1st round though is because he doesn't seem to have great speed. He might just be "average" TE speed (4.7's).

(02-12-2021, 11:18 AM)ochocincos Wrote: While I don't disagree with you that TEs can be found after Rd 1 (as you indicate, plenty have), you make it sound like the 1st round TEs are terrible and so many of the guys after are great.

Irv Smith - 311 yards, 2 TDs in 2019. 365 yards, 5 TDs in 2020. I wouldn't call him a "very solid above average TE." That's Drew Sample production.
Dawson Knox - 388 yards, 2 TDs in 2019. 288 yards, 3 TDs in 2020. Again, not very good either. He had some good catches, but he's not a featured member of that offense.
Cole Kmet - 243 yards, 2 TDs. That's worse than Sample.

On the flip side...
Hockenson - 367 yards, 2 TDs as a rookie, 723 yards, 6 TDs in 2020. Hockenson had more production in his 2020 season alone than Smith and Knox have had in two years.
Fant - 562, 3 as a rookie. 673, 3 in 2020. Yet again, way more productive than Smith, Knox, or Kmet.

OJ Howard has been plagued with the injury bug like Eifert, but he's been productive when healthy.
1602 yards and 14 TDs in 42 games is solid. But Howard was more raw coming out of college compared to a guy like Pitts, but he went in the 1st round because of his elite profile. 

Hurst should not have gone in 1st round. My favorite TE in that draft class was Mark Andrews. I really wanted him in Rd 2 or 3. 

Day 2 has been the gem of TEs in recent years, but they all had their flaws coming into the draft, which is why they didn't go in the 1st. Whether it be lack of production, non-elite speed, lack of height, played at a small school/conference, whatever. Pitts is considered so high because he checks off all the boxes for what you would want in a TE in the 1st round. Size, speed, athleticism, high profile school and conference, proven dominant production.

If I was to put money on any TE in this upcoming draft class to become good aside from Pitts, I'd only consider Freiermuth or Brevin Jordan. I think both go in Rd 2. Tre McKitty might become something, but I can easily see him not. He's a perfect early Rd 4 pick.

I want to clarify this... much like last year when I was not in the crowd ready to go all in on Burrow because I knew the line was going to suck and didn't think the team would help him. I am not against Pitts as a player. He has a great skillset and he can certainly be a weapon and a match-up nightmare. But Pitts is a weapon and if you don't have the ability to keep your QB upright long enough to use him, it is useless to have weapons. 

If they go out there and get 2 upgrades in FA, then they can do whatever with that pick and it would be an upgrade, but if they still have Bobby Hart and Michael Jordan as starters... that has to be fixed with the top pick, even if you move back a few to take another guy like Slater or Darrisaw and get the additional pick.

(02-12-2021, 03:01 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I want to clarify this... much like last year when I was not in the crowd ready to go all in on Burrow because I knew the line was going to suck and didn't think the team would help him. I am not against Pitts as a player. He has a great skillset and he can certainly be a weapon and a match-up nightmare. But Pitts is a weapon and if you don't have the ability to keep your QB upright long enough to use him, it is useless to have weapons. 

If they go out there and get 2 upgrades in FA, then they can do whatever with that pick and it would be an upgrade, but if they still have Bobby Hart and Michael Jordan as starters... that has to be fixed with the top pick, even if you move back a few to take another guy like Slater or Darrisaw and get the additional pick.

Jordan and Hart for sure have to be upgraded. Honestly, RG also needs to be upgraded too, probably even more than RT. You can't gamble on XSF remaining healthy and playing well. If they re-sign Spain, I'd like for Spain and XSF to compete for one OG spot.

I still think two good OL upgrades can be found in Rds 2 and 3, but I'd prefer not to use the first 3 picks of the draft all on offense. The Bengals really need upgrades on defense, especially given how they just put a lot of money into Reader and Waynes, plus might be giving a lot to Lawson and/or WJ3. They can't fill the defense with all veterans and just have the offense all on rookie contracts. 

(02-11-2021, 07:07 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: 4.5’s is akin to 90th percentile for TE’s.  Only true freaks like Vernon Davis, Jared Cook, or converted WR’s (Waller) get below 4.5.  If Pitts runs 4.5 or better with his excellent tape he deserves to be considered, especially if Sewell is gone.  Personally, I’d rather have Pitts than any of the WR’s as the TE pool is not as deep as WR.

If Sewell is gone I am definitely starting to lean Pitts more and more every day.

Still like Slater and Darrisaw along with Chase but I want to see us get a game changing TE like Eifert was in 2015 for us.

(02-12-2021, 03:13 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Jordan and Hart for sure have to be upgraded. Honestly, RG also needs to be upgraded too, probably even more than RT. You can't gamble on XSF remaining healthy and playing well. If they re-sign Spain, I'd like for Spain and XSF to compete for one OG spot.

I still think two good OL upgrades can be found in Rds 2 and 3, but I'd prefer not to use the first 3 picks of the draft all on offense. The Bengals really need upgrades on defense, especially given how they just put a lot of money into Reader and Waynes, plus might be giving a lot to Lawson and/or WJ3. They can't fill the defense with all veterans and just have the offense all on rookie contracts. 

Sadly yes RG needs an upgrade as well, we really do need 3 new starters on that line but if we upgrade Hart and Jordan and have a Sewell out there or a Moton and Thuney out there, it is much easier to make up for one weak link then it is to make up for an entirely terrible O-line.

XSF and Spain fighting for one spot is totally fine if the other spots at T and G are locked in and solid.

(02-11-2021, 07:07 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: 4.5’s is akin to 90th percentile for TE’s.  Only true freaks like Vernon Davis, Jared Cook, or converted WR’s (Waller) get below 4.5.  If Pitts runs 4.5 or better with his excellent tape he deserves to be considered, especially if Sewell is gone.  Personally, I’d rather have Pitts than any of the WR’s as the TE pool is not as deep as WR.

To be fair, when I say 4.5's, I'm talking 4.50-4.59.
4.70 is considered the average TE speed, so anything less is good. Anything below 4.60 is really good.

(02-12-2021, 04:14 PM)ochocincos Wrote: To be fair, when I say 4.5's, I'm talking 4.50-4.59.
4.70 is considered the average TE speed, so anything less is good. Anything below 4.60 is really good.

What did Eifert run again?

(02-12-2021, 03:22 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: If Sewell is gone I am definitely starting to lean Pitts more and more every day.

Still like Slater and Darrisaw along with Chase but I want to see us get a game changing TE like Eifert was in 2015 for us.

Pitts looks to be a better prospect than Eifert.
Not only does he have proven production, but he looks like more of a field stretcher than Eifert ever was.
Eifert actually has around average TE speed (4.68).

(02-12-2021, 04:17 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Pitts looks to be a better prospect than Eifert.
Not only does he have proven production, but he looks like more of a field stretcher than Eifert ever was.
Eifert actually has around average TE speed (4.68).

Thanks for Eifert's forty was just asking about that lol

Liking Pitts more and more if Sewell is gone, just hope we get Moton or Daryl Williams in FA to free up the pick.

So, IF Sewell is gone and after reading this post IF Pitts is there at 5, Why not trade the pick? According to most in the thread I would think that IF Pitts is this valuable and a generational talent that someone would be looking to move up and get him. There are two things for me....1. We need to fix the OL, first and foremost 2. The Bengals are not a team that uses a TE, especially since Zac has been here

(02-11-2021, 12:11 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Anyone who doesn't want Kyle Pitts either:
1) Undervalues his abilities
2) Thinks Bengals have good TEs now or optimism they'll get better
3) Don't think the Bengals will be able to incorporate TE well enough into the passing game

Taylor called and asked if he could check multiple boxes or just get a D option for "All of the Above"?

(02-13-2021, 10:08 AM)spazz70 Wrote: So, IF Sewell is gone and after reading this post IF Pitts is there at 5, Why not trade the pick?  According to most in the thread I would think that IF Pitts is this valuable and a generational talent that someone would be looking to move up and get him.  There are two things for me....1. We need to fix the OL, first and foremost  2. The Bengals are not a team that uses a TE, especially since Zac has been here

I wouldn't be against trading back and getting Darrisaw or Slater.

It is just so stupid to not use the TE in the NFL now a days though. How can Taylor be this young and live in this time and not 
realize that a great pass catching TE is one of the most valuable players on the field now?

(02-13-2021, 10:08 AM)spazz70 Wrote: So, IF Sewell is gone and after reading this post IF Pitts is there at 5, Why not trade the pick? According to most in the thread I would think that IF Pitts is this valuable and a generational talent that someone would be looking to move up and get him. There are two things for me....1. We need to fix the OL, first and foremost 2. The Bengals are not a team that uses a TE, especially since Zac has been here

So what happened when Zac drafted Burrow last year?

(02-13-2021, 05:26 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: So what happened when Zac drafted Burrow last year?

It was probably the most obvious blatant pick of all time...

(02-13-2021, 05:10 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I wouldn't be against trading back and getting Darrisaw or Slater.

It is just so stupid to not use the TE in the NFL now a days though. How can Taylor be this young and live in this time and not 
realize that a great pass catching TE is one of the most valuable players on the field now?

To understand ZTs current opinion on TEs look no.further than 
The drafting of Drew Sample. 
The TE has evolved into a center piece of the offense.
The influence of a pass catching TE now is to the point 
That they can affect a defense more than a WR.
But ZT is stuck.in.the past regarding TEs.
Just look.at the Sample pick.
He is not the prototypical NFL TE of 2021

(02-13-2021, 05:30 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: It was probably the most obvious blatant pick of all time...

So what did he do to help burrow in his offense?

I wouldn’t be saying Hockenson if he was in this draft instead of Pitts - people are arguing about positional value but I don’t consider Pitts to be a pure TE or even a hybrid. He can play both WR and TE and has elite traits. Consider us lucky that if Sewell isn’t there that we have the chance to draft any of the Top 3 WR/TE this year.

It is harder to luck out on an All Pro LT in later rounds than a WR, but I wouldn’t draft an OT top 5 just because of physical traits like what happened with Greg Robinson or Jason Smith. Sewell is legit and Pitts has the chance to be a megatron - Green - TE.

(02-13-2021, 06:07 PM)impactplaya Wrote: To understand ZTs current opinion on TEs look no.further than 
The drafting of Drew Sample. 
The TE has evolved into a center piece of the offense.
The influence of a pass catching TE now is to the point 
That they can affect a defense more than a WR.
But ZT is stuck.in.the past regarding TEs.
Just look.at the Sample pick.
He is not the prototypical NFL TE of 2021

There is a remote chance that Drew Sample or any of the 2019 draft are on ZT. ZT had way more on his plate than to spend months preparing for the draft. For one, a new head coach has to become familiar with the entire organization top to bottom and that includes one-on-one meetings with all critical people. He has to assemble his staff. He then needs to watch Bengals film of prior years to familiarize with what/who is coming back. He also has to look at film of the critical AFC North because of the importance of intra-division games. He then needs to install his playbook and that includes an enormous amount of time not îonly for ZT but for his newly hired staff. The last is the logistics of moving his family into a place they had never been.

Drew Sample is almost assuredly the work of our defacto GM and a small scouting staff. Did ZT “sign off” of the picks? Undoubtedly. It just is far more likely that he was just playing nice rather than rocking the boat.

I think proof positive is how different the 2019-2020 drafts look.

(02-13-2021, 06:07 PM)impactplaya Wrote: To understand ZTs current opinion on TEs look no.further than 
The drafting of Drew Sample. 
The TE has evolved into a center piece of the offense.
The influence of a pass catching TE now is to the point 
That they can affect a defense more than a WR.
But ZT is stuck.in.the past regarding TEs.
Just look.at the Sample pick.
He is not the prototypical NFL TE of 2021

Which is weird with him being so young honestly. Hopefully he can grow as a coach and start watching what Offenses like 
the Chiefs, Saints, Packers etc are doing... All we can do is hope.

(02-13-2021, 06:50 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: So what did he do to help burrow in his offense?

Not much. Brought in Burrow with Tee, drafted Adeniji and brought in XSF.

They focused on the Defense last FA, hopefully they focus more on helping Burrow and the OL this FA while building up the 
trenches on both sides. Get up to speed with what teams that win the SB are doing. We need a pass rush and good blocking
offensively.