(02-27-2021, 12:45 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: This makes me think you weren't around for Carson Palmer.

Also a Heisman winning 1st overall pick. Bengals Bangal'd.

Eh, I dunno.

We spent money then, we made coaching changes, we built up talent. We had a good team during most of Carson's time here. For whatever reason, the team couldn't shed the friction (carson didn't like our offensive plan; rudi wanted more carries; marvin didn't want to play henry; etc). That was one of the reasons I wanted marvin gone, it never seemed like he was able to get a talented roster to function.

Florio sucks, but he's not wrong.

(02-27-2021, 07:52 PM)Aquapod770 Wrote: Florio sucks, but he's not wrong.

Be that as it may.... You nailed it in the first 2 words of your post.

(02-27-2021, 10:10 AM)samhain Wrote: Did they really, though?  He was a pretty outstanding quarterback for several years and to ignore the fact that the team became relevant during his time here is disingenuous.  He left when they wouldn't let him have a bigger say in personnel decisions.  What happened after that?  They basically did all the things he was asking for and became a solid franchise for 5 seasons.  

I'm not anti-Carson, but did he go on to win Super Bowls after we "Bungled" his career?  How many qbs had better OL or weapons than Carson did in his best years here?  1 or 2 maybe?  

It's pure conjecture to think he'd have had any more success if he were drafted by another team.  Given the trajectory of most first round quarterbacks, he probably fared above average here.  His injuries could have happened anywhere (and did again in Arizona).  The o-lne at the time of the knee injury was one of the best in the NFL.  

It's all conjecture for sure, but Palmer being drafted by the Bears who made it to the SB with Rex Grossman, or the Steelers/Ravens who had top tier defenses, or ended up with Andy Reid or something could have led to him having more marquee wins than he got here.  

I do think Palmer being drafted by the Bears and playing for those teams that had Devin Hester and an amazing defense could have helped....well, lots of QBs could have done stuff in Chicago in that time period I guess.


As for Florio, he may be a Bengal hating d-bag who needs to go to hell, but meh...we haven't had a winning season since 2015 and our last two seasons have been total arse.  I'd complain about him talking ill about us but thems the breaks.  Reminds me of Sports Illustrated for Kids having that "don't say bad stuff about anyone" slant to it.  I think it was going into the 1993 football season and for teams that were good they talked about the marquee players but for the lousy teams it was all about them being "a young, talented team."

Anywho, is Florio any harder on the Bengals than we were on the Browns when they stunk?  Is it easy to be positive about bad teams you aren't a fan of?  Could I write a non-hater paragraph about the godawful Pittsburgh Pirates or the Ottawa Senators?  

(02-27-2021, 12:06 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Bro, I like you, but you have to know this isn't at all true.

There's so much that goes into this label beyond money spent on player's salaries.  I'm not trying to beat a dead horse by continually bringing these things up, but I think I need to explain my point.

-Small front office (No GM, family members taking up majority of spots, a singular Director (Tobin vs. multiple (Csollege, Pro)
-Small scouting department. (At one point it was the smallest in the league.  Not sure if it still is, but it's way down there)
-No indoor facility.

Then you have all of the stories over the years.  You can debate which are true, which actually matter, but I don't think you can debate the total of them helps shape the perception that this team is cheap.

-Small towels. (Kijani had to buy bath towels for the lineman because they were so bad and they wouldn't replace them)
-Coin Pop Machine.  (Fulcher's story of going to the Raiders and them laughing at him because he couldn't figure out how to pay for his soda)
-Gatorade behind lock and key. (Players were taking advantage of free gatorade, so they locked it up after practice)
-Coach plane tickets. (Tony Siragusa was sent a coach ticket for his free agency visit. Sirigusa weighed like 350 pounds)
-No soap/shampoo. (Jonathan Joseph's remark when he went to Texans about having ammentities on site)
-West Coast Hotels (Marvin had to fight for years to arrive a day earlier so they players could adjust. Mike didn't want to pay for another night)
-HDMI cables (Infamous Hard Knocks scene where players had to rent HDMI cabled for their TV's for like $10)

These are just some off the top of my head.  Again, you debate some of them, but all of the above go into the narrative this is a cheap franchise.

None are as bad as the used random jock straps in the hamper story. I think Ashley Ambrose told that one.

(02-27-2021, 02:07 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Florio is an asshat and an unabashed Steelers fan/bengal hater. Most of his bengals takes show little imagination. More of the same old same old.

Unfortunately for us the bengals are the only or one of a few teams where the primary business is the team. No outside business units to bring in other revenue. But they have made their stockpile.

I don’t know the feasibility of them building their own outdoor practice bubble as I don’t know what that would cost. I’ve always thought for a team that mostly lives through the draft they would be better served investing in the scouting department. Tobin would have been fired by most teams by now considering his performance. If Mikey has really stepped away from most of the decision making I’ll hold judgment until I have seen more from Katie will do moving forward


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This. Scouts are cheap. Front office personnel with actual skills are cheap. If you’re going to rely on the draft you need an excellent, robust scouting department to turn mid and late round draftees into usable contributors.

(02-28-2021, 12:11 AM)Nately120 Wrote: It's all conjecture for sure, but Palmer being drafted by the Bears who made it to the SB with Rex Grossman, or the Steelers/Ravens who had top tier defenses, or ended up with Andy Reid or something could have led to him having more marquee wins than he got here.  

I do think Palmer being drafted by the Bears and playing for those teams that had Devin Hester and an amazing defense could have helped....well, lots of QBs could have done stuff in Chicago in that time period I guess.


As for Florio, he may be a Bengal hating d-bag who needs to go to hell, but meh...we haven't had a winning season since 2015 and our last two seasons have been total arse.  I'd complain about him talking ill about us but thems the breaks.  Reminds me of Sports Illustrated for Kids having that "don't say bad stuff about anyone" slant to it.  I think it was going into the 1993 football season and for teams that were good they talked about the marquee players but for the lousy teams it was all about them being "a young, talented team."

Anywho, is Florio any harder on the Bengals than we were on the Browns when they stunk?  Is it easy to be positive about bad teams you aren't a fan of?  Could I write a non-hater paragraph about the godawful Pittsburgh Pirates or the Ottawa Senators?  

I get it, but there are still way too many unknowns when it comes to being able to say what CP's career would have been like anywhere else.  He had 8 years, 1 of which he never set foot on the field.  Another (08) he was either playing hurt or flat out not playing at all.  So in reality, it's 6 seasons with him on the field.  One was developmental (04).  The next was one of the best seasons the team had with a loaded offense.  Same loaded offense in 06.  07 and 08 were disappointments by any reasonable measure.  09 was an overachievement, and I'd argue that the team's success was more due to Benson and the running game than anything CP was doing.  2010 was the T-Ocho dumpster fire, but CP9 explicitly asked for that to happen.  

When guessing what his career would have been like elsewhere, people are really making leaps.  Just look at the Colts.  As an organization, they assembled a generationally great offense around an all-time great quarterback in Manning.  Good line, embarrassment of weapons everywhere, and mountains of wins including a Super Bowl.  Peyton sustains his neck injury, the Colts flop to get yet another generational QB in Luck, then run 18 out of town, supposedly leaving him for dead.  

Now, in hindsight, Luck had a nice but massively disappointing career cumulatively in Indy.  He was one of the most highly touted QB prospects ever to be drafted.  It was damn near impossible to find weaknesses in his game.  He had size, arm strength, accuracy, intelligence off the charts, and he was competitive as hell.  He even looked the part for awhile before injures began accumulating.  At the time, other than New England, what team would you want to draft that kind of player other than Indy?  They just developed and won with a can't miss quarterback.  Manning thrived there and became an all-time great not only at the position but in the totality of the game.  Surely to god Luck would be a HOF mega star there, right?

Except, as we all know it didn't go down that way.  They failed miserably to build a line to protect him, go his brains beat out, and effectively ran him out of the league long before he should have been.  He didn't quit his team like CP, he quit the entree game of football forever, largely because of inept management of the team around him.  This wasn't crappy old Mike Brown.  It was an ownership group that had a title, a HOF QB, and a very recent history of winning a lot, and they absolutely botched a generational, maybe THE generational QB prospect in epic fashion.

As for the Bears, they have their own set of issues.  They'd probably have given a lot for a QB the caliber of Andy Dalton, much less Palmer.  They are the all time can't find a QB team of the league.  

To say this or that would have happened here or there is kind of a pointless exercise. Too many variables and too many instances of conventional wisdom being proven wrong.

They run a business and like making money? When the hell did that crap start among the very rich? All this time I thought they were all gonna take a vow of poverty and want to stop being rich! To be fair, if you listen to republicans long enough you'd be convinced that of rich people had to pay the first dime in taxes they'd all close down every business in the world and leave the planet. 

(02-26-2021, 01:55 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Florio gives his thoughts on what he expects from the Bengals this offseason. I've been as critical as anyone when it comes to Mike and the front office, but I disagree with Florio here...at least as far as what I think they'll do this offseason. I expect them to be active and aggressive in free agency again, and to add some quality talent.


"We do see the Bengals spend big from time to time on strangers to the organization, but overall the team has a long-standing reputation of being extremely careful with money and they may be looking for some bargains in free agency," Pro Football Talk's Mike Florio said this week. "Just because they have that cap space, doesn't mean they have to spend it all. Like no other team the Bengals identify success as money in versus money out and they know how to turn a profit and they're very happy when they do. They don't care about championships. They care about making money."

"And again, just because they have cap space doesn't mean they're going to burn it all," Florio continued. "They like to have that cap space, they like to keep that money in their pockets if they can. There's only so much you have to spend under the salary cap. It's a four-year rolling average and every dollar that you don't spend that is earmarked for the cap is raw unadulterated profit and the Bengals understand that like no one else."

I hope he is as wrong this Offseason as he was the last one....

No Melvins were harmed in the writing of this thread.

(02-26-2021, 01:55 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Florio gives his thoughts on what he expects from the Bengals this offseason. I've been as critical as anyone when it comes to Mike and the front office, but I disagree with Florio here...at least as far as what I think they'll do this offseason. I expect them to be active and aggressive in free agency again, and to add some quality talent.


"We do see the Bengals spend big from time to time on strangers to the organization, but overall the team has a long-standing reputation of being extremely careful with money and they may be looking for some bargains in free agency," Pro Football Talk's Mike Florio said this week. "Just because they have that cap space, doesn't mean they have to spend it all. Like no other team the Bengals identify success as money in versus money out and they know how to turn a profit and they're very happy when they do. They don't care about championships. They care about making money."

"And again, just because they have cap space doesn't mean they're going to burn it all," Florio continued. "They like to have that cap space, they like to keep that money in their pockets if they can. There's only so much you have to spend under the salary cap. It's a four-year rolling average and every dollar that you don't spend that is earmarked for the cap is raw unadulterated profit and the Bengals understand that like no one else."

Florio only cares about clicks over accuracy.  Pooping on a franchise like the Bengals likely results in a lot of clicks from the small fraction of the steeler fanbase that can actually read.

The Bengals care about winning championships.  Speculating otherwise is just being a douche.  And, we all knew that the second we saw who was the author.

What should Florio say about the Bengals? What should a national sports talking head say about them? Other than saying Joe Burrow is awesome, what else is there to say that isn't negative?

Hell, even with Burrow being the best QB prospect ever you have the immediate negative take that the Bengals have a lousy o-line and a HC who called 60 pass plays per game and "got" him injured. Other than saying "No comment, let's just talk about the Steelers and Cowboys and Tom Brady" what can be done?

(02-28-2021, 01:15 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: This.  Scouts are cheap.  Front office personnel with actual skills are cheap.  If you’re going to rely on the draft you need an excellent, robust scouting department to turn mid and late round draftees into usable contributors.

Ya know, I never actually bothered looking up how much NFL scouts make until now.
Here's a breakdown from 2018 based on an anonymous survey of NFL scouts - http://succeedinfootball.com/2018/05/04/2018-nfl-scouting-salaries-our-survey-breakdown/
Bengals could add a few more scouts and easily not break the bank.

(02-26-2021, 03:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I disagree with the statement that the Bengals just pocket the unused cap.
They stocked up a good amount of cap back about 10 years ago and basically have rolled it over year after year.
They could make the decision not to roll any or just part of the unused cap to next year, but they roll it all over.
By doing this, they've spent at or very close to the regular cap number every year.

The real issue is they don't always use their cap wisely. They sign mediocre players to inflated deals a good amount of time, and they are hesitant to cut bait with a declining/bad player until they have very little dead cap remaining. As such, some players stay longer than they should.

This is the biggest problem with the roster.... it's not spending. It's how it's spent.

However, they're cheap everywhere else, and nepotistic af.

(02-27-2021, 12:22 AM)samhain Wrote: I think it will happen.  Burrow has put them in a position to prove that they aren't what the media says they are.  If they screw up his career, it's over.  This is life and death for them and they know it.  People will abandon them if they do not figure it out.  Against all logic, I feel like they will do what they need to do to protect him after what happened last year, and that means spending on OL in free agency.

God I hope you're right.

Florio and Simms just agreed the Steelers have the worst QB in the AFC North.