(03-01-2021, 11:28 PM)samhain Wrote: AJ used to be great at high-pointing balls and competing for tough catches. He was truly a guy that would win most of the time when a QB threw it up for grabs and left it up to him to go up and beat the defender. I saw none of that this year. There were times where he didn't even leave the ground for high throws. Without that, he just doesn't have the same value.

Yep. And that’s a matter of effort, not diminishing skill (which was also evident in other ways). I love AJ, he’s a top 5 Bengal of all time for me, but I was very disappointed in him this season. But then again ending their careers here on a down note is just par for the course when it comes to Bengal greats.

(03-01-2021, 11:46 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: That's the way I see it too. He's just not the same, and it sucks. He might bounce to a 3 or 2....but I don't think ever more than that. He likely plays a little better with another year of training on the bum ankle, but he'll never even be 2017 AJ Green again.

Yeah... I really had high hopes that he'd pick up where he left off (way back in October of 2018) last season. The only consolation is that we nabbed a guy with a similar skill set in last year's draft. All in all AJ Green is one of the best Bengals of all time, and was one of the best receivers of his generation... No shame in that. It just sucks that he'll go out as many of our guys do; on another team... With little fanfare from the organization that drafted him, and enjoyed his prime.

(03-01-2021, 11:48 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Im.going to give a left of center opinion.

AJ Green.could not wait to play with JB and vice versa. The greatest QB in college paired
With the WR ready to show the football he still had it. He claimed he was healthy
And ready to rock and roll.

Then the season began. And the losses mounted.
Ive seen all kinds of reasons why AJ Green failed to produce last year.
Heres mine.

Hes tired of losing and simply he thinks Zac Taylor is a joke.
When the Bengals started off 0 and 3 , 0 and 4 last year that took all of the excitement
And enthusiam out of AJ Green.
AJ Green did not forget on how to be a great WR.
The game stopped being fun for him. He doesnt believe in Zac.
And I dont think Zac did him any favors by running him.on the same predictable routes
Over and over. CBs are smart. They study film. They understand leverage.

People say AJ hasnt played in 2 years. Hes getting up in years.
Lest not forget his body hasnt been beat up in 1.5 years.
Thats 600 plus days of no wear and tear.

I see a WR that is tired of losing.

That is the most unlikely BS, AJ's performance or lack there of, has nothing to do with ZT. 

(03-01-2021, 11:58 PM)sandwedge Wrote: That is the most unlikely BS, AJ's performance or lack there of, has nothing to do with ZT. 

I dunno... We gave away a guy to the Seahawks who's performance seemed to be linked to the coaching staff. It's not outta the question, and we shall see in a few months.

(03-01-2021, 11:58 PM)sandwedge Wrote: That is the most unlikely BS, AJ's performance or lack there of, has nothing to do with ZT. 

You might on to something darn.
I just realized ZT has no bearing on this team
Being 6 25 and 1 over the last 2 years.
How could he possibly influence mindsets of players'with all.this winning culture he has graced us with??

(03-01-2021, 11:48 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I see a WR that is tired.

Bam, that's all that needed to be said.

I get people not liking zt, but that has zero with a guy underperforming at the level aj did. Injuries are one thing, but if you're going to be on the field, do your job. If you can't, retire and get out of the way.

I think something that needs to mentioned with AJ's disappointing play is the disappointing way he was used (targeted way too often, running routes he shouldn't have been).

You don't get to the level of OP's numbers without both the player and the playbook and playcalling being a cause in this.

The fact of the matter is, besides his decline in skill and besides the front office overvaluing him, the coaching staff never really altered their approach. AJ Green was still being forced into the offense at a ridiculous rate long after it was apparent he wasn't the player they had hoped for. He was still running routes down the field long after it was apparent he couldn't seperate, and couldn't go up and make plays.

After weeks 4 and 5, where he produced 1 catch for 3 yards, and 0 catches, he was targeted 11 times in week 6, and 13 times in week 7. These were by far his most productive games, but I think it was clear they went out of their way to get him involved. (Fwiw, we lost both games)

Then he went on this run in weeks 8-12: 2 for 19 yards, 0 for 0, 4 for 41, 0 for 0, and another 0-0.

So at this point you would think they'd phase him out of the offense a bit, right? Well, no. He ended the season with target totals of 7, 3, 6 and 7. Sill a 92 target pace when averaged over 16 games, and this came in an offense we were thowing less than earlier in the season.

And you can't just blame Burrow for forcing him the ball. It was clear they had designed plays for him. And it was clear, despite it never working, they kept trying to hit him down the field.

I could be wrong, but I think AJ had one catch on the season that was down the field 20 yards or more. Pretty sure he had zero beyond 30. At what point do you realize he can't run these routes?

So yeah, AJ did not look anywhere near what he once was. But the question you have to ask yourself, is why was a guy liked that targeted so much? Why didn't they use him differently?

Larry Fitzgerald has been running pretty much all underneath routes for the last few years. It's rare you'll see him run a route beyond 12 yards. Perhaps we could have had AJ strictly playing a similar role? Perhaps we could gone with more 2 RB sets and pulled him from the field more often? Perhaps we could have run out an extra lineman?

All I'm saying is, as much as this is an indictment on AJ, it's just as much as indictment on the coaching staff that allowed these numbers to come to fruition.

AJ said "don't tag me"

I believe AJ didn't really wanna be here last season. Remember the incident on the bench with the WR's coach ? Did he really say "play me or trade me " ? I don't know ? But I don't think it's much of a stretch to say there was tension.

Add in AJ's declining ability due to injuries and just age, he's lost a step.

I don't think AJ's heart was truly in it last season. He never should have been tagged.

was an overpriced Decoy last year... what a difference a few years off makes

(03-01-2021, 10:27 PM)QueenCity Wrote: No thanks on the 1 year prove it contract. We need to move on.

We already gave him a "1 year prove it contract" last year.

He proved that he was finished.

(03-02-2021, 12:03 AM)jason Wrote: I dunno... We gave away a guy to the Seahawks who's performance seemed to be linked to the coaching staff. It's not outta the question, and we shall see in a few months.

Dunlap was upset over not being used.  Green, on the other hand, was still getting as many targets as any receiver on the team.

(03-01-2021, 08:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't see any logic in this at all.  The LAST thing a player wants to do if he is thinking about becoming a free agent is to look like he has nothing left to offer any team.

Green barely has 500 receiving yards over the last TWO-AND-A-HALF YEARS.

In the past 2.5 seasons, AJ Green had fewer yards than John Ross:
Ross - 654
Green - 530

They also played nearly the same number of games:
Ross - 19 games
Green - 17 games

In the past 3 seasons, here is how much they earned:
Ross - $14 mill
Green - $41 mill

I’m over Aj green and have been for a while. Aj green was a great wr for us but the fact that he lets the ball into his body wayyyyy to much and refuses to attack or high pick the ball is elementary receiver stuff that he doesn’t do anymore. He’s no where near the price point he’s on now. Plays scared runs out of bounds with green grass infront of him. Smh give him walking papers please

(03-02-2021, 12:27 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I think something that needs to mentioned with AJ's disappointing play is the disappointing way he was used (targeted way too often, running routes he shouldn't have been).

You don't get to the level of OP's numbers without both the player and the playbook and playcalling being a cause in this.

The fact of the matter is, besides his decline in skill and besides the front office overvaluing him, the coaching staff never really altered their approach.  AJ Green was still being forced into the offense at a ridiculous rate long after it was apparent he wasn't the player they had hoped for.  He was still running routes down the field long after it was apparent he couldn't seperate, and couldn't go up and make plays.

After weeks 4 and 5, where he produced 1 catch for 3 yards, and 0 catches, he was targeted 11 times in week 6, and 13 times in week 7.   These were by far his most productive games, but I think it was clear they went out of their way to get him involved.  (Fwiw, we lost both games)

Then he went on this run in weeks 8-12:  2 for 19 yards, 0 for 0, 4 for 41, 0 for 0, and another 0-0.

So at this point you would think they'd phase him out of the offense a bit, right?  Well, no.  He ended the season with target totals of 7, 3, 6 and 7.  Sill a 92 target pace when averaged over 16 games, and this came in an offense we were thowing less than earlier in the season.

And you can't just blame Burrow for forcing him the ball.  It was clear they had designed plays for him.  And it was clear, despite it never working, they kept trying to hit him down the field.

I could be wrong, but I think AJ had one catch on the season that was down the field 20 yards or more.  Pretty sure he had zero beyond 30.  At what point do you realize he can't run these routes?

So yeah, AJ did not look anywhere near what he once was.  But the question you have to ask yourself, is why was a guy liked that targeted so much?  Why didn't they use him differently?

Larry Fitzgerald has been running pretty much all underneath routes for the last few years.  It's rare you'll see him run a route beyond 12 yards.  Perhaps we could have had AJ strictly playing a similar role?  Perhaps we could gone with more 2 RB sets and pulled him from the field more often?  Perhaps we could have run out an extra lineman?

All I'm saying is, as much as this is an indictment on AJ, it's just as much as indictment on the coaching staff that allowed these numbers to come to fruition.

FWIW, AJ had 3 20+ yard caches and at least one of those was 30+ yards per NFL.com.

Thing is, his targets actually were greatly reduced from what he would typically get.  He had 77 in 9 games in '18. The guy was getting 160-170+ targets a year in his prime.  

We couldn't use him like Fitzgerald.  Fitzgerald is basically a pure slot WR now.  They paid big money to Boyd to be the slot WR and Boyd sucks on the outside.  I mean, you technically could, but you're just robbing Peter to pay Paul.  That makes the FT even dumber.  They did it when there was every reason to expect a dropoff knowing that they couldn't move him to the slot to salvage something because of Boyd.


If you bench him and cut his targets even more, who do you give his PT and targets to?  Ross sucks and got hurt.  Tate sucks and got hurt.  Erickson sucks and is a slot WR, anyways.  Thomas sucks.  Morgan sucks.  It's not like we had any good developmental talent on the bench.

I ultimately put it on the FO.  They made a terrible decision to tag AJ in the first place and didn't do enough to address the position group in what was the deepest WR class in history, instead blowing 3 picks on stack LB's.

(03-01-2021, 11:58 PM)sandwedge Wrote: That is the most unlikely BS, AJ's performance or lack there of, has nothing to do with ZT. 

Playcalling can be a big factor in a player's performance.
AJ does better on certain routes and situations than others. If he's being used in a certain way that's different that what he excels at, his performance can suffer.

(03-02-2021, 02:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Playcalling can be a big factor in a player's performance.
AJ does better on certain routes and situations than others. If he's being used in a certain way that's different that what he excels at, his performance can suffer.

I don't see it being a "big factor" at all.  A good coach may be able to squeeze some production from a player with very limited skills by just using him in very limited routes.  Or he may be able to enhance a very skilled players numbers from good to great.  But I don't see any way possible that play calling could be the reason a WR with any decent skills to rank 644 out of 645 in yards per target or 643 out of 645 in catch percentage.

(03-02-2021, 02:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't see it being a "big factor" at all.  A good coach may be able to squeeze some production from a player with very limited skills by just using him in very limited routes.  Or he may be able to enhance a very skilled players numbers from good to great.  But I don't see any way possible that play calling could be the reason a WR with any decent skills to rank 644 out of 645 in yards per target or 643 out of 645 in catch percentage.

Maybe the "big" adjective was excessive, but it can be a factor. 
If a receiver is better on short routes but is used a lot more on deep routes when they aren't good at climbing the ladder or tracking the ball, they could perform worse. Or if a guy is used primarily on short routes but has the ability to make plays further down the field, his stats could suffer.

I'll say this, as bad as AJ was this year for a number of reasons, it could've been much better if Burrow didn't miss him several times early on in the year. Burrow admittedly missed AJ on a few long balls where he was wide open. That stupid push off call in the End zone of the first game costed him another TD and an MVP for that game to start the year. I think that 1st game loss costed the team that early confidence, along with Burrow and AJ.
I think you could add another 100 yds and a few more TD's if Burrow wouldn't have admittedly missed chances with AJ early on and often.
All that being said, I think he'll train his butt off, another year to strengthen the foot and ankle, and he can have another nice year, fairly close to AJ expectations. I'd hope it could still be with the Bengals, if they can come to an agreement. Stick with what you already know instead of FA when it comes to WR's they say.....
I'm pulling for him, he's such a class act!

(03-01-2021, 07:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Over the last 10 years there have been 345 times when a WR has been targeted 100 times in a season.  Green had 104 last year.

Of those 345 Green's 5.0 yards per target last year ranked 344th. (Tavon Austin 4.8 in 2016)

His 45.2 catch percentage ranked 343rd. (Denarius Moore 44.7 in '12, Torrey Smith 44.5 in '12)

He was one of only 16 who did not have more than 2 receiving tds.

He was not just bad.  He was HISTORICALLY bad.

Higgins only had 4 more targets (108) but he produced 20 more receptions, 385 more yards, and three times as many tds (6).

Boyd only had 6 more targets (110) but he produced 32 more receptions, 318 more yards, and twice as many tds.

Some of this is on Burrow...

(03-02-2021, 12:12 AM)impactplaya Wrote: You might on to something darn.
I just realized ZT has no bearing on this team
Being 6 25 and 1 over the last 2 years.
How could he possibly influence mindsets of players'with all.this winning culture he has graced us with??

ZT had nothing to do with AJ playing scared.