For those citing pff grades, Gabe Jackson was the 21st best pass blocking pff grade (69.9) last season. Thuney was 14th (73.1). I feel like the pass blocking grade is more translatable because a lot of the running game can be schemed up and the idea is to protect Burrow. If Justin Pugh from Arizona becomes available his pass blocking grade was 9th among guards (74.4) although I think he was also one of the league leaders in penalties among guards. I am not really in the camp of paying a guard 15M bucks per to be honest.

(03-04-2021, 10:35 AM)SErebel11 Wrote: For those citing pff grades, Gabe Jackson was the 21st best pass blocking pff grade (69.9)  last season. Thuney was 14th (73.1). I feel like the pass blocking grade is more translatable because a lot of the running game can be schemed up and the idea is to protect Burrow. If Justin Pugh from Arizona becomes available his pass blocking grade was 9th among guards (74.4) although I think he was also one of the league leaders in penalties among guards. I am not really in the camp of paying a guard 15M bucks per to be honest.

lol 15 mil is high grade LT money.

(03-04-2021, 10:37 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: lol 15 mil is high grade LT money.

Zach Martin and Brandon Brooks are making 14 a year at guard, if this wasn't a weird COVID year there was probably a pretty good chance Thuney and Scherff could have been looking at 15 million a year AAV. 

(03-04-2021, 09:08 AM)Au165 Wrote: It would be great to sign the Pro Bowl rosters from last season but that isn't reality. There are exactly two guards projected for FA currently that are rated higher than Jackson, Thuney and Scherff. Many believe Scherff is going to get the tag again so that leaves only a single one in Thuney. This whole idea that it is Thuney or bust though is illogical as we aren't the only suitor and I am not paying him like he is Quinton Nelson just because of the lack of supply. Getting a guy like Jackson and putting him next to a quality RT will make a world of difference to our line. 

To put it in perspective, is the team better off getting Thuney for his projected 4 years/57M (14.25M per) or Jackson for 5-6M and Curtis Samuel who is projected around 3 yrs/27M (9M per)? Admittedly, those are pff projections and I don't know how close to being accurate those are.

(03-03-2021, 09:22 PM)Au165 Wrote: He was the 38th rated guard on PFF last year, remember that grades don’t translate well from position to position.  With 64 starting guards in the league that places him at just below average but two years ago he was 13th so you could potentially bet on regaining that. As a second wave option you could do worse. Remember a bunch of people loved Spain here because he wasn’t a complete dumpster fire and he only graded at 56.4 last year.

Is that 56.4 at guard or 56.4 overall as he played some tackle last year?

(03-04-2021, 11:03 AM)SErebel11 Wrote: To put it in perspective, is the team better off getting Thuney for his projected 4 years/57M (14.25M per) or Jackson for 5-6M and Curtis Samuel who is projected around 3 yrs/27M (9M per)? Admittedly, those are pff projections and I don't know how close to being accurate those are.

Can't say I'd be at all keen on Jackson for 6m. He seems to be a player on the decline and there's some suggestion that he's struggled with the Raiders since they moved to a zone blocking system like the Bengals are seeking to use.

I wouldn't see signing him as fixing the problem and probably at best just delaying it for a year.

Now if they want to bring him in as a secondary move on a relatively cheap contract behind signing someone like Moton (if he were to escape the franchise tag, which seems highly unlikely) or Thuney I could get a bit more on board with it.

(03-04-2021, 01:18 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Is that 56.4 at guard or 56.4 overall as he played some tackle last year?


Can't say I'd be at all keen on Jackson for 6m. He seems to be a player on the decline and there's some suggestion that he's struggled with the Raiders since they moved to a zone blocking system like the Bengals are seeking to use.

I wouldn't see signing him as fixing the problem and probably at best just delaying it for a year.

Now if they want to bring him in as a secondary move on a relatively cheap contract behind signing someone like Moton (if he were to escape the franchise tag, which seems highly unlikely) or Thuney I could get a bit more on board with it.

I am not pounding the table in fury for this guy but he is a solid option and will likely be in that price range. Last season, he gave up zero sacks, 2 QB hits and 26 pressure in 634 passing snaps.

(03-04-2021, 09:08 AM)Au165 Wrote: It would be great to sign the Pro Bowl rosters from last season but that isn't reality. There are exactly two guards projected for FA currently that are rated higher than Jackson, Thuney and Scherff. Many believe Scherff is going to get the tag again so that leaves only a single one in Thuney. This whole idea that it is Thuney or bust though is illogical as we aren't the only suitor and I am not paying him like he is Quinton Nelson just because of the lack of supply. Getting a guy like Jackson and putting him next to a quality RT will make a world of difference to our line. 

Agree, don't have to pay Gabe Jackson a ton either like we would with Thuney most likely. Gabe gave up zero sacks last 
year which sure would help around here. Get Daryl Williams and Gabe while retaining Spain then Draft in the trenches a 
bit and that is a damn fine start.

Jackson is a guy who I really wanted them to try and trade for a couple years ago when he was rumored to be on the block. 

Over the past 2 years, his rating has been down in the low 60's...but in the 5 years prior to that, he averaged a 73 rating. 

He's still a very talented lineman, capable of playing both G spots and he won't break the bank to sign. I think he'd be a solid addition and could also be a decent fit in the wide zone run scheme that Pollack wants to utilize.

(03-04-2021, 11:03 AM)SErebel11 Wrote: To put it in perspective, is the team better off getting Thuney for his projected 4 years/57M (14.25M per) or Jackson for 5-6M and Curtis Samuel who is projected around 3 yrs/27M (9M per)? Admittedly, those are pff projections and I don't know how close to being accurate those are.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Matt Rhule use Samuel in specific ways to help Samuel produce?
He's not really someone I see as being a consistent contributor unless you cater his plays to his strengths.
Would we trust Zac Taylor to be able to use Samuel properly?
I don't.

(03-04-2021, 02:16 PM)SErebel11 Wrote: I am not pounding the table in fury for this guy but he is a solid option and will likely be in that price range. Last season, he gave up zero sacks, 2 QB hits and 26 pressure in 634 passing snaps.

A solid option for how long though? He'll be 30, he's a big guy and has had injury problems - only once in the last 4 years has he been able to play all 16 games (and next year it looks like being 17 games) - and the level of his play is seemingly on the decline.

Are you wanting to fix the line for a year or for several years?

Is he a scheme fit? Seems not.

Does he have play-off experience? He made the play-offs once in seven years - a wild card defeat to Houston.

Was he a team captain? Doesn't appear so.


He might be what another team is looking for, but doesn't seem a good fit for what the Bengals need to rebuild the line. The main thing he seems to have going for him for the Bengals is name recognition.

(03-04-2021, 03:43 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: A solid option for how long though? He'll be 30, he's a big guy and has had injury problems - only once in the last 4 years has he been able to play all 16 games (and next year it looks like being 17 games) - and the level of his play is seemingly on the decline.

Are you wanting to fix the line for a year or for several years?

Is he a scheme fit? Seems not.

Does he have play-off experience? He made the play-offs once in seven years - a wild card defeat to Houston.

Was he a team captain? Doesn't appear so.


He might be what another team is looking for, but doesn't seem a good fit for what the Bengals need to rebuild the line. The main thing he seems to have going for him for the Bengals is name recognition.

Other than Thuney and Scherff (who will both be crazy expensive) and maybe Feiler, who could potentially end up playing G for someone...how many guards out there are better than Jackson?

And speaking of Feiler, I like the idea of signing him to play LG (where he says he likes the best) and Jackson to play RG (where he has the most experience). They could sign both guys for probably less than one Joe Thuney. That addresses 2 spots and they could still go after a RT (maybe a possible trade for Havenstein) or C if they choose to.

(03-04-2021, 03:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Matt Rhule use Samuel in specific ways to help Samuel produce?
He's not really someone I see as being a consistent contributor unless you cater his plays to his strengths.
Would we trust Zac Taylor to be able to use Samuel properly?
I don't.

Actually Joe Brady used him in a ton of ways and you are probably correct that Taylor would likely not get the best out of him. I was using that as a quick example of upgrading two position groups with that portion of the cap instead of one.

(03-04-2021, 03:50 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Other than Thuney and Scherff (who will both be crazy expensive) and maybe Feiler, who could potentially end up playing G for someone...how many guards out there are better than Jackson?

And speaking of Feiler, I like the idea of signing him to play LG (where he says he likes the best) and Jackson to play RG (where he has the most experience). They could sign both guys for probably less than one Joe Thuney. That addresses 2 spots and they could still go after a RT (maybe a possible trade for Havenstein) or C if they choose to.

I like your thoughts here Holic. I am afraid if we go after Thuney or Scherff it will just be them and we won't be able to afford a RT.

I would take Feiler, Gabe Jackson and Daryl Williams over Thuney or Scherff no question. 

I also like the thought of a trade for Havenstein.

(03-04-2021, 04:03 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I like your thoughts here Holic. I am afraid if we go after Thuney or Scherff it will just be them and we won't be able to afford a RT.

I would take Feiler, Gabe Jackson and Daryl Williams over Thuney or Scherff no question. 

I also like the thought of a trade for Havenstein.

Yeah, I mean if they could sign Feiler, Jackson and still address RT with Darryl Williams or Havenstein, then they've basically revamped the o-line with the exception of C, where there's still a question mark in my mind. Even if Hopkins is able to start the season, he's been fairly mediocre. Of course, maybe having better G play on either side will help him improve his own game. 

It also allows the draft to be wide open and gives them an opportunity to give Burrow a legit bigtime playmaker in the first round. 

(03-04-2021, 04:13 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, I mean if they could sign Feiler, Jackson and still address RT with Darryl Williams or Havenstein, then they've basically revamped the o-line with the exception of C, where there's still a question mark in my mind. Even if Hopkins is able to start the season, he's been fairly mediocre. Of course, maybe having better G play on either side will help him improve his own game. 

It also allows the draft to be wide open and gives them an opportunity to give Burrow a legit bigtime playmaker in the first round. 

saw somewhere billy price is ready to show why he was a 1st rounder.  I could be a year off though

(03-04-2021, 03:43 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: A solid option for how long though? He'll be 30, he's a big guy and has had injury problems - only once in the last 4 years has he been able to play all 16 games (and next year it looks like being 17 games) - and the level of his play is seemingly on the decline.

He is 6 months older than Scherff and 1 year older than Thuney. He played all 16 games just last season. His pass blocking has been consistent over his career.

(03-04-2021, 03:43 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Are you wanting to fix the line for a year or for several years?

They need 3-4 offensive linemen. I am fine with a using a couple of solid guys mixed with a couple of longer term options and unless you are going to ignore the defense and other position groups for the most part then that is what they will have to do. Paying a guard 14-15M is not smart team building is the honest reality of it.

(03-04-2021, 03:43 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Is he a scheme fit? Seems not.

The running game can be schemed. Frankly, his value lies in his pass blocking and this is a passing league. 0 sacks and 2 QB hits all season.

(03-04-2021, 03:43 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Does he have play-off experience? He made the play-offs once in seven years - a wild card defeat to Houston.

Completely irrelevant. 

(03-04-2021, 03:43 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Was he a team captain? Doesn't appear so.

This important?

(03-04-2021, 03:43 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: He might be what another team is looking for, but doesn't seem a good fit for what the Bengals need to rebuild the line. The main thing he seems to have going for him for the Bengals is name recognition.

I can see him being one solid piece to the puzzle even if it is for 1-2 years allowing them to spend money more responsibly at other positions while developing a guard or two from the draft in the later rounds or maybe one currently on the roster.


[/quote]

(03-04-2021, 03:34 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I think he'd be a solid addition and could also be a decent fit in the wide zone run scheme that Pollack wants to utilize.

What leads you to believe that? Even in his younger days, lateral movements were average even on a good day. If Pollack wants to re-assert the run game with wide zone concepts, GB, to me, is a poor fit.

(03-04-2021, 04:38 PM)CoachGeorge Wrote: What leads you to believe that?  Even in his younger days, lateral movements were average even on a good day.  If Pollack wants to re-assert the run game with wide zone concepts, GB, to me, is a poor fit.

While he has excelled in more power based schemes (inside/man blocking in particular) and his lateral movement isn't the greatest...he isn't exactly a phone booth lineman either. When healthy, he's still athletic enough to play in a primarily wide zone run scheme, and will be a great asset when they go man/inside power. 

One thing is for sure Callahan should be familiar with him (and Brown).

(03-04-2021, 05:07 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: While he has excelled in more power based schemes (inside/man blocking in particular, and his lateral movement isn't the greatest...he isn't exactly a phone booth lineman either. When healthy, he's still athletic enough to play in a primarily wide zone run scheme, and will be a great asset when they go man/inside power.

He's been in a wide zone scheme since 2018 with the Raiders under Jon Gruden and Tom Cable.