(03-06-2021, 11:48 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And I'm saying that Jordan doesn't "suck", he has had his career derailed by some bad coaching.  Coaching that not only caused the abrupt retirement of Clint Boling, the refusal to play by Cordy Glenn, but also the protracted development of any and all young OL that were on the team at that time.  Now that the leadership in the OL room has changed, we'll see how he does.

(03-06-2021, 11:55 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: As far “hating OSU?” I don’t. I just find the fans that can’t separate their college and NFL fandoms obnoxious.

Well, to be fair, you were the one that brought up school bias, and I called that a lazy argument.  In fact, you're still being lazy in your arguments about Mike Jordan.  I have listed specific traits and qualities that he displayed in college, that seem to have went away with the help of Bengals coaching, you keep using general terms like terrible and horrendous, rather than listing any specific aspects of his game that make him appear to be terrible.

(03-07-2021, 12:01 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Well, to be fair, you were the one that brought up school bias, and I called that a lazy argument.  In fact, you're still being lazy in your arguments about Mike Jordan.  I have listed specific traits and qualities that he displayed in college, that seem to have went away with the help of Bengals coaching, you keep using general terms like terrible and horrendous, rather than listing any specific aspects of his game that make him appear to be terrible.

Who cares what he did in college? Plenty of players have been good in college but not in the pros. Blame it on coaching if you want, but Jonah Williams had no problem overcoming Jim Turner. Because he’s actually...you know...good.

(03-07-2021, 12:11 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Who cares what he did in college? Plenty of players have been good in college but not in the pros. Blame it on coaching if you want, but Jonah Williams had no problem overcoming Jim Turner. Because he’s actually...you know...good.

That may be the difference between a number 11 pick and a 4th round selection, but Jonah looked "average", in the games that he was actually healthy..

Still doesn't mean that Jordan is bad, just mishandled thus far, same as Williams. And you still have failed to ever say exactly what aspects of Jordan's game make him a bad player, or even offer any supporting details of Williams' game that make him "ok", for that matter.

(03-07-2021, 12:28 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That may be the difference between a number 11 pick and a 4th round selection, but Jonah looked "average", in the games that he was actually healthy..

Still doesn't mean that Jordan is bad, just mishandled thus far, same as Williams.

Usually agree with you Sunset (especially on OL stuff), but we’re just too far apart on this. It’s honestly shocking to me anyone would try to argue Jordan hasn’t been bad. I don’t want to keep going back and forth though, so I’ll just say I think Big Willie has his work cut out for him with Jordan, and leave it at that.

Jordan has been pretty horrendous and was definitely put in the lineup prematurely. Having Turner be his coach didn't help either.

While I am hopeful Willie can help him and that Pollack can also coach him up OVER TIME, we need to not be having him be a starter. Once we got him and Redmond out of the lineup (by having both Spain and XSF at the same time) the interior line play improved. If they want him as a backup okay - but we need legit NFL starter quality starting Guards so we had better get one or more in Free Agency.

(03-07-2021, 12:28 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That may be the difference between a number 11 pick and a 4th round selection, but Jonah looked "average", in the games that he was actually healthy..

Still doesn't mean that Jordan is bad, just mishandled thus far, same as Williams. And you still have failed to ever say exactly what aspects of Jordan's game make him a bad player, or even offer any supporting details of Williams' game that make him "ok", for that matter.

Well I was going to leave it alone...

But why is the onus on me to go over all his deficiencies? He’s pretty much universally seen as a bad player thus far (by fans, by PFF, by the coaches that benched him). Why don’t you fill us in on why he hasn’t sucked at the NFL level?

(03-07-2021, 12:35 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Usually agree with you Sunset (especially on OL stuff), but we’re just too far apart on this. It’s honestly shocking to me anyone would try to argue Jordan hasn’t been bad. I don’t want to keep going back and forth though, so I’ll just say I think Big Willie has his work cut out for him with Jordan, and leave it at that.

I'm not arguing that Jordan hasn't been poor in production.  What I'm arguing about is that he shouldn't be cast off as a lost cause.  The guy has talent, has been mishandled thus far, and just needs to be put back on the right track.  He was a great draft selection, and that potential is still there, he just needs that good coaching to be utilized in his best capacity.

I know that many of us argued long and hard over Jim Turner.  The result of his tenure here is that two years of OL development were wasted, and the careers of at least two decent NFL OL are no longer, specifically because of him and his teachings.

So, when it comes to a guy like Mike Jordan, I like to think that with a sound, rational OL Coach like Frank Pollack, his career at least has a fighter's chance of making it.

(03-07-2021, 12:47 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm not arguing that Jordan hasn't been poor in production.  What I'm arguing about is that he shouldn't be cast off as a lost cause.  The guy has talent, has been mishandled thus far, and just needs to be put back on the right track.  He was a great draft selection, and that potential is still there, he just needs that good coaching to be utilized in his best capacity.

I know that many of us argued long and hard over Jim Turner.  The result of his tenure here is that two years of OL development were wasted, and the careers of at least two decent NFL OL are no longer, specifically because of him and his teachings.

So, when it comes to a guy like Mike Jordan, I like to think that with a sound, rational OL Coach like Frank Pollack, his career at least has a fighter's chance of making it.

Let him develop in practice then. Joe Burrow (and his reconstructed knee) don’t have the luxury of waiting around for a project olinemen to figure things out.

(03-07-2021, 12:46 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Well I was going to leave it alone...

But why is the onus on me to go over all his deficiencies? He’s pretty much universally seen as a bad player thus far (by fans, by PFF, by the coaches that benched him). Why don’t you fill us in on why he hasn’t sucked at the NFL level?

Because you want to throw out ugly, broad generalizations of the guy, without fully considering the entire situation.  This guy worked his entire life to become an NFL OL, unlike a guy like John Ross who just happened to be super fast and thought he could just cash in and be famous without putting in the work.

(03-07-2021, 12:51 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Let him develop in practice then. Joe Burrow (and his reconstructed knee) don’t have the luxury of waiting around for a project olinemen to figure things out.

Agreed, I don't think that Mike Jordan should have been put into a starting role then, and I continue to think that positions should be earned by merit.

Michael Jordan is the absolute worst guard in the NFL.. Get him outta here. How could anyone argue otherwise, unless they are an OSU Homer??... Ridiculous.. The guy got our 1oa stud QB destroyed. I don't want to see him in a Bengals uniform ever again. He was downright horrible...

(03-07-2021, 01:07 AM)Tony Wrote: Michael Jordan is the absolute worst guard in the NFL.. Get him outta here. How could anyone argue otherwise, unless they are an OSU Homer??... Ridiculous.. The guy got our 1oa stud QB destroyed. I don't want to see him in a Bengals uniform ever again. He was downright horrible...

So, what exactly about his game needs to be improved?  Obviously, you know all there is to know in order to state such irrefutable absolutes about the guy.  So, let's hear exactly what's wrong about him.

(03-07-2021, 01:12 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, what exactly about his game needs to be improved?  Obviously, you know all there is to know in order to state such irrefutable absolutes about the guy.  So, let's hear exactly what's wrong about him.

Everything! He was downright horrible.. He got bull rushed like crazy... He's just not a NFL caliber guard. He was literally the worst starting guard in the entire League... He's just not good enough. He isn't playing indiana anymore....

Is this a troll job? You can't be serious with any of this can you?

(03-07-2021, 01:35 AM)Tony Wrote: Is this a troll job? You can't be serious with any of this can you?

Not a troll, If you can name any specific details of Jordan's game that make him a "terrible" player, feel free to list them.  Otherwise, I'm just going to assume that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground, and continue on my way.,

(03-07-2021, 01:47 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Not a troll, If you can name any specific details of Jordan's game that make him a "terrible" player, feel free to list them.  Otherwise, I'm just going to assume that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground, and continue on my way.,

It doesn’t take an OL expert to realize Jordan is a bad player. I don’t remember people getting called out like this when they were (rightly) criticizing Ogbuehi.

Defending Michael Jordan seems like an odd hill to die on.

(03-07-2021, 02:00 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It doesn’t take an OL expert to realize Jordan is a bad player. I don’t remember people getting called out like this when they were (rightly) criticizing Ogbuehi.

Defending Michael Jordan seems like an odd hill to die on.

You keep searching for other angles, but this time you do make a point.  Ogbuehi was fools gold from the beginning.  He was developed under an offense that was QB'd by Johnny Manziel.  His responsibilities lasted about two seconds.  Ogbuehi and Jordan are two completely different cases.  Jordan demonstrated the ability to not only block his primary assignment, but also disengage and move to another target, fluidly.  He didn't forget how to do those things when he came to the NFL, his coaching led him astray from what he had been taught in college.

You ask why Mike Jordan is the "hill I choose to die on"?  Well, the dude is legit, and he's been screwed over by the coaching he's received thus far.  That's why I choose to stand with him, in his quest to be who he really is.

(03-06-2021, 10:32 PM)sandwedge Wrote: But what if Willie helps him out and Pollock get's him playing at high level? 

Then that us fantastic but we still need 2 guards so if they sign Thuney and there us real competition and he earns a spot great. I just don't want this to be an excuse for him to be handed a job and no upgrades in FA.

(03-06-2021, 11:55 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It also doesn’t do any good to stick your head in the sand (pun not intended lol) and pretend like all our players are going to work out either. Many of them won’t. Jordan has been horrendous, and there’s nothing wrong with not wanting to see him starting going forward. Regardless who he’s currently working with. Not sure how that equals being a “high school girl.”

As far “hating OSU?” I don’t. I just find the fans that can’t separate their college and NFL fandoms obnoxious.

It's not sticking your head in the sand. We all know MJ hasn't been good, I'm sure he does too. Why not let the guy either get better or not? If he becomes a good OG, great for us, if not he gets let go, no need to trash the guy.

(03-07-2021, 01:47 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Not a troll, If you can name any specific details of Jordan's game that make him a "terrible" player, feel free to list them.  Otherwise, I'm just going to assume that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground, and continue on my way.,

I already did.. He is bad at everything... Why should anyone sit here and point out everything he does wrong? When you are ranked dead last at your position, it's safe to say that you aren't any good. His upper body strength is horrible, His footwork is horrible, His technique is horrible. His play as a whole is downright awful.. He isn't blocking guys from Indiana and rutgers anymore. Even if it was coaching, why would he keep doing whatever it was they told him to do if it made him suck??? That doesn't even make sense. No one would do that.. It's blocking, not rocket science. You are either good at it or you aren't. He isn't... It's time to move on before he helps end Burrow for good...