Gio is the only one you would cut early and I doubt he's going anywhere the front office loves him. It's been reported they want to work out a pay cut with Geno so that could still be on the table.

No real reason to rush.

(03-11-2021, 02:55 PM)Whatever Wrote: Why would you cut guys before you have to?

Hart is a big one that there's speculation that gets cut.  If we cut him before FA starts and don't sign a starting caliber RT, then every team knows we're going T in 1 or 2 in the draft and can jump you if they need one.

This was my thinking too. Not that it is in the player to be cuts best interest, but it is a negotiating piece as well. A player/agent coming into negotiations knowing we have a glaring hole at 3T by cutting Geno now, has a justification to drive up asking price during the deal. Whereas we keep some of these on the fence players until we have their replacement, if we hear a proposal we like we can be at the advantage. A ton of players are getting whacked and its going to come to a point where they just want a place to go to work. The 1 year deals will be a hot ticket as they look to prove it before the market resets next year.

Why would you cut guys like Hart if you intend on bringing them back?
I think most of these guys are going nowhere. Why the heck would it hurt to cut Hart? Who is going to sign him? If they do , it would be for much less than he's being paid now.

Eric Fisher was cut today by the chiefs and other teams have cut quality players already. It's not like the Bengals are playing chess while the others play checkers. There's a very good chance most of these guys come back. This team went 4-11-1 for a reason and most of it had to do with management and their decisions last off-season.

(03-11-2021, 01:42 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: As an example:  The Dolphins have a similar amount of cap space as us and they've already cut bait from Kyle Van Noy.  They even ate 4 mil in dead cap to do so.

They didn't need to wait to find a replacement.  They just decided this guy wasn't worth the money was due, and they moved on.  It seems perfectly reasonable to make this assement, knowing you'll have ample options to choose from in FA and/or the draft.

Again, I can see waiting on players that are on the fence.  My question is, are all of our guys still on the fence, and we haven't been able to identify players we know we're moving on from?

.

Our FO will hang on and try to get a late rd pick in trade. At least that seems to kind of be their MO.

(03-11-2021, 08:30 PM)2MinutesHate Wrote: Why would you cut guys like Hart if you intend on bringing them back?
I think most of these guys are going nowhere.  Why the heck would it hurt to cut Hart?  Who is going to sign him?  If they do , it would be for much less than he's being paid now.

Eric Fisher was cut today by the chiefs and other teams have cut quality players already.  It's not like the Bengals are playing chess while the others play checkers.  There's a very good chance most of these guys come back.  This team went 4-11-1 for a reason and most of it had to do with management and their decisions last off-season.

My response applies to everyone minus Hart, lol. Johnson or Adeniji there doesn't drop the needle from Hart much. But Geno, XSF, Bernard...I think its worth keeping those guys around until we can viably fill the hole they would leave in both the locker room and on the field. Hart should have been trebuche'd outta here after year 1. Extending him was as big a mistake as letting Zeitler and Whit walk. Line has been a disaster to say the least

Left side of mouth: "Let's do all we can to protect #9"

Right side of mouth: "Let's cut on of the best pass protecting RBs in the NFL to create a hole at #2 RB and save $4 Mil"

Some moves just don't make sense. We could not replace Gio's value on the field and in the locker room for $4 Mil

(03-11-2021, 01:19 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Curious to hear from you on if you think we will see any cuts before next Weds (FA officially opens).

Fwiw, I'm always of the position that if you know for a fact a player is not in your future plans that you should always cut them prior to FA.  It does right by the player in giving them an equal chance with other FA's to get signed and to set the market.  If you dump a guy weeks after FA opens he's hitting a market that's now cheaper, and many teams will have already filled needs.

Plus, what benefit is there in waiting if you know the guy isn't going to be around?

I'll be interested to see if we have any cuts coming up.  If players aren't cut before Weds. then I have to believe we're still considering keeping them and it may be dependent on the market and their potential replacements.

If you see names like Atkins, Hart, Bernard, Uzomah, Hopkins, Price, and XSF all still here come Weds. I would have to think they all still have a very good chance to stick.  In fact, you're probably not going to see more than one or two of them get released later during FA, if any at all.  Some may not be purged until camp.

What do you guys think?  Are you suprised we haven't moved on from anyone yet?  Do you want us to make cuts before next week?  Anyone you'll be shocked by still being here this time next week?

Not surprised at all.. most of the guys on your list are not larger cap hits or higher price FAs.. what we see right now is most teams are holding on to those lower to mid salary players... im sure we will see a couple go next week but i think as most teams they are not going to just purge their team before they see what they get early in FA..

(03-11-2021, 08:48 PM)Blazer7051 Wrote: My response applies to everyone minus Hart, lol. Johnson or Adeniji there doesn't drop the needle from Hart much. But Geno, XSF, Bernard...I think its worth keeping those guys around until we can viably fill the hole they would leave in both the locker room and on the field. Hart should have been trebuche'd outta here after year 1. Extending him was as big a mistake as letting Zeitler and Whit walk. Line has been a disaster to say the least

Adeniji gave up the same number of sacks(4) as Hart last year in 1/4 of the snaps.  He was so bad he gave up more sacks per snap than Ogbuehi did in '16 and '17. 

Not saying Hart is great, but he's a serviceable starter.  We should be trying to upgrade, but it's not like there's a bunch of backups out there in the league better than him.  

(03-11-2021, 08:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Left side of mouth: "Let's do all we can to protect #9"

Right side of mouth: "Let's cut on of the best pass protecting RBs in the NFL to create a hole at #2 RB and save $4 Mil"

Some moves just don't make sense. We could not replace Gio's value on the field and in the locker room for $4 Mil

I love Gio, but actually being able to run the ball a little bit when Mixon is out of the game is also helping to protect Burrow.

He's still great in pass pro, but hasn't been an effective rusher since '17 and his ability as a receiver has also tailed off the last three or so years.  He's basically an undersized FB that you can't even use as a lead blocker, at this point.

No cuts that'll count, I believe.

(03-11-2021, 06:29 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: To each their own, but I just can't get on board with this.

1.) Have the Bengals ever restructured someone's deal?  (I'm sure they have but none are coming to mind).  Remember this is an organization that fully believes "you honor the contract you signed".  Could this be the first time they used their leverage and forced guys to take pay cuts?  Maybe, but I'm not holding my breath.

2.) I'm really not sure you want some these guys back even at lesser amounts.  Either it's time to move on and bring in someone else or it's not. 

I mean, are we building something here, or are we just slapping a new coat of paint on?  What answers do Geno Atkins, Bobby Hart, and Gio Bernard provide for this beyond 2021, if they even provided any for this year?  What about 2022, 2023, 2024?

Shouldn't we be getting younger in spots if we can?  Shouldn't we be looking for talent we can build off of for years to come?  Shouldn't we get guys experience in this system for when we can hopefully start seriously competing in years 3, 4, and 5 of Burrow's rookie deal?

None of these guys do much for me.  They're not that great, and they're not putting this team over the hump in 2021 to win a ring, so what good are they?  You're telling me a team that won 6 games over 2 years is going to be screwed trying to replace guys like these?

Why keep bringing back the same guys?  

Hart absolutely has no business being brought back.

Geno and Gio, I would bring back on re-structured deals.

I get that both are starting to be older players, and yes we need to get younger and upgrade but you can only upgrade so many positions in one draft class and one FA period.

Both of this guys are still above average players (I know Geno looked bad, but I'm going to give him the benefit of that shoulder injury being the issue). If you re-structure and keep them both for another season it means you aren't looking for a back-up RB and another interior DL this season when you need to get better across the line and will need an edge rusher, and a CB to replace Alexander and one to replace WJIII not too mention we need some more guys in the WR room and TE room.

So while neither guy is probably part of the true long term options, they are both certainly worth keeping in the short term if you can get their cap numbers down.

(03-11-2021, 06:32 PM)Synric Wrote: Gio is the only one you would cut early and I doubt he's going anywhere the front office loves him. It's been reported they want to work out a pay cut with Geno so that could still be on the table.

No real reason to rush.

A guy I like on a cheap prove it deal would be Marlon Mack

No cuts, how else will they justify firing Zac next season? Then when Zac is gone, they'll invest on the new coach to appease him with HIS picks/changes.

(03-11-2021, 08:30 PM)2MinutesHate Wrote: Why would you cut guys like Hart if you intend on bringing them back?
I think most of these guys are going nowhere.  Why the heck would it hurt to cut Hart?  Who is going to sign him?  If they do , it would be for much less than he's being paid now.

Eric Fisher was cut today by the chiefs and other teams have cut quality players already.  It's not like the Bengals are playing chess while the others play checkers.  There's a very good chance most of these guys come back.  This team went 4-11-1 for a reason and most of it had to do with management and their decisions last off-season.

Why cut him till you have a viable replacement on board?

(03-12-2021, 10:28 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Why cut him till you have a viable replacement on board?

I think it's similar to firing the head coach.  There is no viable replacement, but the team must find one nonetheless.  
I suppose if FA or the draft doesn't work out, we will still have Hart.  It wouldn't surprise me one bit if he's the Week 1 starter.

(03-12-2021, 06:16 PM)2MinutesHate Wrote: I think it's similar to firing the head coach.  There is no viable replacement, but the team must find one nonetheless.  
I suppose if FA or the draft doesn't work out, we will still have Hart.  It wouldn't surprise me one bit if he's the Week 1 starter.

if he had a big roster bonus coming or something then i would understand.  But We have cap to sign someone before we need to release hart.  So once we do that then we can let him go. if not we might need him again.

(03-12-2021, 06:19 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: if he had a big roster bonus coming or something then i would understand.  But We have cap to sign someone before we need to release hart.  So once we do that then we can let him go. if not we might need him again.

Yeah, we have the money to sign his replacement so it would be pointless to cut him until we sign said replacement.

It would be different if we needed to free up the money to sign his replacement.

This is why I think there will be a lot more players to choose from as teams replace current starters for cap reasons.

I think we need to be smart. They need to restructure Geno in next few days or trade him. If not, wait until June 1st and after draft and cut him to save 9 million dollars in 2021.

Geno - 9 to 9.5 million depending on when they cut him (almost pays for entire 2021 draft class)
Gio needs to be cut prior to Tuesday - savings = 4.1 million
Uzomah - 5.2 million (then look to sign him to a more team friendly deal or go after a vet TE
Price - 2.1 million (it all adds up)

Can wait until after the draft and FA
Hopkins - 4.3 million (Go after Linsley)
Hart -5.0 million if they wait, 5.8 if they do before March 17

This is what I would do If I were the GM, possibly around 30 million in cuts to add to 44 million we have to spend now = 74 million - 10 million for draft picks

(03-13-2021, 12:06 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think we need to be smart. They need to restructure Geno in next few days or trade him. If not, wait until June 1st and after draft and cut him to save 9 million dollars in 2021.

Fwiw, here is how Geno's cap hits look pre and post June 1st.

Pre-June 1st

9.5 mil in cap savings in 2021.  0 in dead cap in 2022.

Post-June 1st


12.1 mil in cap savings in 2021. 2.6 mil in dead cap in 2022.

Basically the only difference is that if you cut before June you're absorb all of his dead cap onto 2021 (5.2 mil).  But if you wait to cut him you split the dead cap across both remaining years of his contract. (2.6 mil in 2021 and 2.6 mil in 2022).

The overall savings and club payouts do not change.  And with the Bengals usually leaving 7 to 12 mil to rollover, the difference in absorbing 2.6 mil onto either year is pretty much inconsequential.  Not to mention, they can always move other bonus around to compensate for this.

(03-13-2021, 12:25 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fwiw, here is how Geno's cap hits look pre and post June 1st.

Pre-June 1st

9.5 mil in cap savings in 2021.  0 in dead cap in 2022.

Post-June 1st


12.1 mil in cap savings in 2022. 2.6 mil in dead cap in 2022.

Basically the only difference is that if you cut before June you're absorb all of his dead cap onto 2021 (5.2 mil).  But if you wait to cut him you split the dead cap across both remaining years of his contract. (2.6 mil in 2021 and 2.6 mil in 2022).

The overall savings and club payouts do not change.  And with the Bengals usually leaving 7 to 12 mil to rollover, the difference in absorbing 2.6 mil onto either year is pretty much inconsequential.  Not to mention, they can always move other bonus around to compensate for this.

I don't agree, in 2021 the cap decline is very consequential. So adding 2.6 million in cap savings is important on top of his 9.0 million so 11.6 in a year others are strapped for cash and good players will get cut and be available. In 2022, likely they go to 17 games and new TV contract so cap will be much bigger than 182.5 million in 2021, my guess closer to 210 million per team. 

So, yes cap savings in 2021 is more important than cap savings in 2022 based on this situation. Having said that, I hope they trade him for a 6th round pick and lose his entire salary with zero dead cap hit in 2021 or 2022.