(02-12-2017, 12:28 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Please understand that I wasn't calling YOU dumb. I was saying that to look at where a player was drafted in a vacuum as it relates to what type of prospect he is or isn't is dumb. The draft doesn't happen in that way. Guys rise and fall for good or bad reasons and teams draft guys in different spots for different reasons. I look at those draft slot "value" assignments in the sense of what someone's talent/potential is vs where they are actually drafted. There were a lot of D-linemen and O-linemen last draft with 1st, 2nd, & 3rd round grades. So many in fact, that there was no way they were all going to go in those exact rounds due to the limited number of picks That doesn't mean that if a 2nd round guy is pushed down into the 3rd round that he doesn't have 2nd round potential or characteristics. It just means that other variables or things happened throughout the draft that just had the player getting looked over for other guys/positions.

Here is Westerman's NFL Draft profile. I like these a lot and find them to be really consistent and fair: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/christian-westerman?id=2555131
The draft round projection is just based on potential talent. There are more guys with grades for the 2nd/3rd round than there are picks. That finite number of picks means that some guys are getting pushed down a round or two due to volume NOT that they don't have ability.

Another great recent example of this was Marvin Jones. Teams made runs on receivers and he was one of the ones passed over for whatever reasons. He was graded as a 2nd/3rd round talent, but went in the 5th. http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/marvin-jones?id=2532884 The talent was clearly there, but the picks didn't fall for him to go that high.

Here's a list in order of prospect grade of O-linemen from last years draft: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/tracker#dt-tabs:dt-by-position/dt-by-position-input:ol
See where Westermen is ranked (11th) with a grade of 5.8? See where the other OGs went with the same or lower grade? They went higher. That means that, according to grade, the Bengals got a HUGE value in terms of draft position and potential. Where he actually went doesn't mean he loses talent or potential.

(02-12-2017, 01:00 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: I think he could be OK, but we don't know for certain. I'll agree that we should have enough to keep Whit AND Zeitler.  And if you cut Adam Jones and Michael Johnson, you can keep Dre Kirkpatrick too. And those are moves that I would make. But yeah I don't think the ownership is gonna do that so...I guess we hope Westerman is good and they fix the rest of the line somehow.

(02-12-2017, 03:27 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I really liked the pick. He is really good in pass protection from his college film and is very strong.

I am a broken record though. Doesn't matter with our O-line coach.

I think Westerman could be very good if we could coach up his run blocking.

(02-12-2017, 12:28 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Please understand that I wasn't calling YOU dumb. I was saying that to look at where a player was drafted in a vacuum as it relates to what type of prospect he is or isn't is dumb. The draft doesn't happen in that way. Guys rise and fall for good or bad reasons and teams draft guys in different spots for different reasons. I look at those draft slot "value" assignments in the sense of what someone's talent/potential is vs where they are actually drafted. There were a lot of D-linemen and O-linemen last draft with 1st, 2nd, & 3rd round grades. So many in fact, that there was no way they were all going to go in those exact rounds due to the limited number of picks That doesn't mean that if a 2nd round guy is pushed down into the 3rd round that he doesn't have 2nd round potential or characteristics. It just means that other variables or things happened throughout the draft that just had the player getting looked over for other guys/positions.

Here is Westerman's NFL Draft profile. I like these a lot and find them to be really consistent and fair: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/christian-westerman?id=2555131
The draft round projection is just based on potential talent. There are more guys with grades for the 2nd/3rd round than there are picks. That finite number of picks means that some guys are getting pushed down a round or two due to volume NOT that they don't have ability.

Another great recent example of this was Marvin Jones. Teams made runs on receivers and he was one of the ones passed over for whatever reasons. He was graded as a 2nd/3rd round talent, but went in the 5th. http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/marvin-jones?id=2532884 The talent was clearly there, but the picks didn't fall for him to go that high.

Here's a list in order of prospect grade of O-linemen from last years draft: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/tracker#dt-tabs:dt-by-position/dt-by-position-input:ol
See where Westermen is ranked (11th) with a grade of 5.8? See where the other OGs went with the same or lower grade? They went higher. That means that, according to grade, the Bengals got a HUGE value in terms of draft position and potential. Where he actually went doesn't mean he loses talent or potential.

(02-12-2017, 08:20 PM)Okeana Wrote: the good thing is if zeitler leaves which he will guys like this will get a much better chance on competing for a starting job.  I think he needed to develop a little more muscle and weight.  maybe last season he got the opportunity to learn and build up.  I would much rather see Cedric O be moved to right guard and westerman backup guard and compete for starting center.  Maybe this is something the coaches see as well which is why they aren't willing to pay Zeitler those huge dollars.





As you can see Most of his snaps were taken as a guard.  We could turn an epic fail into a value pick.

(02-13-2017, 12:48 PM)ochocincos Wrote: RG might be the best spot for Ogbuehi, but how can the 21st overall pick be considered a value pick? Most top guards are selected in the late first round.
To me, Ogbuehi is only a "value pick" if he were to become an elite franchise LT.

(02-13-2017, 05:24 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Considering how many times I saw Ced get bullrushed back into the QB, I don't really think RG is a good fit for him at all.

(02-13-2017, 05:28 PM)ochocincos Wrote: No OL spot will be a good fit for him if he can't learn to anchor. But from what we saw so far, he's not a good OT, so perhaps OG could be better.

(02-13-2017, 05:30 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I get that, but when I look at what was one of his major issues, along with terrible run blocking, OG seems like a worse fit.

(02-13-2017, 05:30 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I get that, but when I look at what was one of his major issues, along with terrible run blocking, OG seems like a worse fit.

(02-13-2017, 06:13 PM)lone bengal Wrote: These two tackle picks of Ced and Fisher could haunt the Bengals for a while. I'm not an expert offensive line evaluator but besides agreeing that Ced will probably struggle at any spot on the line based of last seasons horrid play, I also feel like Fisher is more built to play left tackle. He's 6'6  300 lbs ,a converted tight end and not really a mauler/ grinder in the run game which the right tackle position tends to be. Fisher seems more like a finesse / athletic offense linemen. Along with struggling to pass block last seasons the Bengals haven't been able to run the ball effectively in quite some time. I don't see that changing with Bodine getting pushed around, if Zeitler leaves based on reading Westerman's profile he's struggles with getting push in the run game,  I don't see Fisher being a mauler  and Boling seems to be a better pass blocker than run blocker.

(02-13-2017, 05:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I understand that. I was simply responding to Okeana who said RG could be the best fit because that's where he was most successful in college. But as you point out, the traits that make most top-notch RGs successful are things that Ogbuehi lacks. He really is more suited for the left side (whether that's LT or LG) but still has plenty of work to do to earn a starting job.

I am curious if Boling could take over RG and allow Ogbuehi or Westerman at LG, but that'd be two spots with new faces instead of just one. While I think Westerman might be a good RG, I think he's also better suited at LG.

Honestly, if something doesn't click with Ogbuehi after this year or next, he'll likely go down as the biggest first round bust the Bengals have had in quite some time.

(02-13-2017, 06:13 PM)lone bengal Wrote: These two tackle picks of Ced and Fisher could haunt the Bengals for a while. I'm not an expert offensive line evaluator but besides agreeing that Ced will probably struggle at any spot on the line based of last seasons horrid play, I also feel like Fisher is more built to play left tackle. He's 6'6  300 lbs ,a converted tight end and not really a mauler/ grinder in the run game which the right tackle position tends to be. Fisher seems more like a finesse / athletic offense linemen. Along with struggling to pass block last seasons the Bengals haven't been able to run the ball effectively in quite some time. I don't see that changing with Bodine getting pushed around, if Zeitler leaves based on reading Westerman's profile he's struggles with getting push in the run game,  I don't see Fisher being a mauler  and Boling seems to be a better pass blocker than run blocker.

(02-13-2017, 05:30 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I get that, but when I look at what was one of his major issues, along with terrible run blocking, OG seems like a worse fit.