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RE: Assessing the Cap - Au165 - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 11:20 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: No, it isn't. It is a net situation, not a gross. 

The part you don't get is that the Bengals currently have around 60 guys signed. The top 51 count vs the cap. So, when a rookie is signed to the roster, you have the value of their contract (which is around $8 mil for all our picks). As you correctly say, some of our guys on day 3 will have salary so low they don't currently project as top 51 guys, so don't count vs projected cap totals. 
But you also have a guy making $700k, or $800k, or $900k (usually) coming OFF the books at the same time. For the latter picks, the guy coming off will make more than the rookie. IF all 8 guys roster, you have $8 mil of incoming salary, or more like $6.5 due to top 51. But you will also have 8 (or 6 via 51) guys outgoing. That will be around $5 mil in OUTGOING salary at the same time.

And that is just the estimates. If a rookie replaces a guy making more money that gets released (Fred Johnson, Brandon Wilson, Waynes), then the draft could net us cap space. 

Again, those rookies aren't filling empty roster spots. In everyone's cap calculations, there are already 51 guys taking up space. 

See above, I am aware of the 51 rule I figured out where I was off. The issue was I was thinking total add versus the difference from moving down. I'm not even thinking about vets even looking at the minimum replacements with rookies it's a marginal move. Too early in the day for me to be doing cap stuff.

RE: Assessing the Cap - leonardfan40 - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 11:19 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: If you or someone else could confirm...i thought the 51 rule was only good until the season started? Once the season starts, it's the entire roster.

Yes? No?

Yes I believe around that first week of the season it becomes the whole roster (top 53). The tweet from the guy above actually includes both numbers for that reason. The same netting principal still applies there but you just add the next two cap amounts. In this case it’d be close to an extra $1.5 mil we’d need. That may sound like a decent amount but….

In reality that is usually taken care of with cuts/rookie draft picks with lower cap hits than the top 51 currently have/undrafted players making the team/etc. we won’t need that full $1.5ish mil in cap space unless we have no rookies in rounds 4-7 or undrafted guys make the team

RE: Assessing the Cap - rfaulk34 - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 11:29 AM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Yes I believe around that first week of the season it becomes the whole roster (top 53). The tweet from the guy above actually includes both numbers for that reason. The same netting principal still applies there but you just add the next two cap amounts. In this case it’d be close to an extra $1.5 mil we’d need. That may sound like a decent amount but….

In reality that is usually taken care of with cuts/rookie draft picks with lower cap hits than the top 51 currently have/undrafted players making the team/etc. we won’t need that full $1.5ish mil in cap space unless we have no rookies in rounds 4-7 or undrafted guys make the team

Thanks. I was under the impress that after the season starts, it's the entire roster. Active, inactive, PS, injured. It's been a while since i read it though. 

Though, the guys at the bottom of the roster are only going to scratch the cap, so i wouldn't think the number would be hard to figure in.

RE: Assessing the Cap - Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 - 03-21-2022

I will give an example so those who don't seem to grasp the concept get it.

Say we take Michigan S Daxton Hill in round 1. The #31 pick salary slot is $2,294,331. So we have to have $2.3 in cap space to sign the pick, right? Wrong.

I like Spotrac better than OTC, but they have us at 61 guys. The 51st cap guy would get bumped in their cap calculations: Keandre Jones for $825,000. Subtract that from the $2.3 mil. The net effect on our cap, the cushion needed for the pick, is less than $1.5 mil.

Once you hit round 5, the guy getting bumped makes MORE than the rookie. Of course, this is just them following the rules. You have to count the highest 51 salaries in the cap, even though some of the guys on lower salaries will make the team in the end (say, Chrisman and C. Evans). That is why it is an estimate.

Further, why should Hill's selection, a DB, impact Jones a LB? What would actually happen as a result would be one of the S guys would get bumped: Thomas, B. Wilson or Henderson. Brandon Wilson makes $2.5 mil with $500k dead cap. If he goes because we take Hill, the net cap impact would only be $300k for our first round pick.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/cap/

RE: Assessing the Cap - leonardfan40 - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 11:34 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Thanks. I was under the impress that after the season starts, it's the entire roster. Active, inactive, PS, injured. It's been a while since i read it though. 

Though, the guys at the bottom of the roster are only going to scratch the cap, so i wouldn't think the number would be hard to figure in.

Oh yes sorry, misunderstood. Thought you were just asking if it’s still the top 51 once the season starts vs everyone. All players count at that point including IR/etc. The biggest issues with that come for teams that lose a high paid guy to injury and try to replace him with a high paid player who is cut/traded. They both have to fit in the cap in that scenario.

PS does not count towards cap except for the games they are promoted where they make the minimum salary anyway so it doesn’t change anything.

RE: Assessing the Cap - ochocincos - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 10:04 AM)Au165 Wrote: I'm pretty sure the rookie reserve should be closer to 5.4 million total. Pick 31 alone is about 2.3 million, and while a lot of the back end may not qualify as top 51 day 2 and early 3 should. 

I believe the lower number is accounting for displacement.

RE: Assessing the Cap - BuildTheWall - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 10:51 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That is what I understand as one of the primary reasons for the rollover, in case of injury settlements/replacement signings.
That’s the reason. And it’s not just us, most, if not all other teams do it as well.

RE: Assessing the Cap - Au165 - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 11:50 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I believe the lower number is accounting for displacement.

Yep forgot all about removing those being bumped. Not my finest moment.

RE: Assessing the Cap - Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 11:23 AM)Au165 Wrote: See above, I am aware of the 51 rule I figured out where I was off. The issue was I was thinking total add versus the difference from moving down. I'm not even thinking about vets even looking at the minimum replacements with rookies it's a marginal move. Too early in the day for me to be doing cap stuff.

Cool, delete my previous. You got it. 

Of course, we could trade UP and then we'd need more space. 

Come to think of it, maybe we are hanging on to Waynes to see if a CB needy team will give us anything for him. I doubt it, but you never know. Still  he is the 4th best CB on the roster by a mile. 

RE: Assessing the Cap - Au165 - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 12:06 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Cool, delete my previous. You got it. 

Of course, we could trade UP and then we'd need more space. 

Come to think of it, maybe we are hanging on to Waynes to see if a CB needy team will give us anything for him. I doubt it, but you never know. Still  he is the 4th best CB on the roster by a mile. 

I actually think we go back so we are probably safe.

RE: Assessing the Cap - Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 11:52 AM)Au165 Wrote: Yep forgot all about removing those being bumped. Not my finest moment.

No worries. Everyone brainfarts now and then. And in your defense, our rookie cap allotment is usually pretty significant. We never pick this late. 

RE: Assessing the Cap - Mike M (the other one) - 03-21-2022

Teams are getting really weird with all these short term contracts.
It's becoming rare to see a 5 year one (Non-QB)

RE: Assessing the Cap - 2MinutesHate - 03-21-2022

Anyone here think they keep Waynes just to avoid the 5 million in dead cap hit? Could they add a year to his contract and spread out the 15 million that's left over 2 years? He played a bit at the end of the season but didn't play in the playoffs at all really.

Just wondering as he hasn't been cut yet. Probably just waiting to sign a replacement I suppose.

RE: Assessing the Cap - TheLeonardLeap - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 11:51 AM)BuildTheWall Wrote: That’s the reason. And it’s not just us, most, if not all other teams do it as well.

Bengals rolled over the 8th most this year. 15 teams rolled over $2m or less. The only "playoff" team that had more rollover than the Bengals were the fake 7th seeds who shouldn't have been there and got stomped into oblivion. 3 other conference championship teams....

Rams: $137k
Chiefs: $1.32m
49ers: $1.56m

RE: Assessing the Cap - Synric - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 12:17 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Teams are getting really weird with all these short term contracts.
It's becoming rare to see a 5 year one (Non-QB)

I'm guessing it's more the players and agents.

RE: Assessing the Cap - Whatever - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 12:36 PM)Synric Wrote: I'm guessing it's more the players and agents.

The cap is going to skyrocket with the new TV deal.  Players don't want to get locked into long term deals that will see them grossly underpaid in a few years.

RE: Assessing the Cap - Mike M (the other one) - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 12:36 PM)Synric Wrote: I'm guessing it's more the players and agents.

(03-21-2022, 12:55 PM)Whatever Wrote: The cap is going to skyrocket with the new TV deal.  Players don't want to get locked into long term deals that will see them grossly underpaid in a few years.

Get hurt in yr 1-2 and likely won't make it to yr 3, or have to take a pay-cut with a 1 yr prove it deal. There is security in a longer term contract.
I figured that was the hold up on the Collins contract. He probably wanted more years.

RE: Assessing the Cap - fredtoast - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 12:30 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Bengals rolled over the 8th most this year. 15 teams rolled over $2m or less. The only "playoff" team that had more rollover than the Bengals were the fake 7th seeds who shouldn't have been there and got stomped into oblivion. 3 other conference championship teams....

Rams: $137k
Chiefs: $1.32m
49ers: $1.56m


From Spotrac the Bengals only had $3.4 million unused cap space in 2021.  That was 18th in the league.

2021 NFL Team Salary Cap Space Tracker | Spotrac

But they also show $5.292 rolled over to 2022 from 2021.  So I don't know exactly how they are calculating this.  Where did you get your info on where the Bengals ranked in "rollover"?  Could you show the actual numbers on rollover amount for all the playoff teams?

BTW One of the big reasons the Bengals were able to sign the guys they wanted this year is that they were 28th in "dead cap" space this year.  So maybe all they guys saying "Cap does not matter" need to explain to me why all these other teams have dead cap space that they can not use?  How does that make them smarter than the Bengals?

RE: Assessing the Cap - Au165 - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 01:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: BTW One of the big reasons the Bengals were able to sign the guys they wanted this year is that they were 28th in "dead cap" space this year.  So maybe all they guys saying "Cap does not matter" need to explain to me why all these other teams have dead cap space that they can not use?  How does that make them smarter than the Bengals?

If you commit to going the dead cap route, cap does not matter but you have to be committed to buying cap space each year with cash (This is what the Saints have done for 5+ years). You can always buy cap through mechanisms like restructures and void years. The Bengals go the route of not wanting to have to spend cash to fix their cap like other teams so we are a bit more conservative at times, but it makes it so we don't need to use these tricks to manipulate the cap.

RE: Assessing the Cap - TheLeonardLeap - 03-21-2022

(03-21-2022, 01:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: From Spotrac the Bengals only had $3.4 million unused cap space in 2021.  That was 18th in the league.

2021 NFL Team Salary Cap Space Tracker | Spotrac

But they also show $5.292 rolled over to 2022 from 2021.  So I don't know exactly how they are calculating this.  Where did you get your info on where the Bengals ranked in "rollover"?  Could you show the actual numbers on rollover amount for all the playoff teams?

BTW One of the big reasons the Bengals were able to sign the guys they wanted this year is that they were 28th in "dead cap" space this year.  So maybe all they guys saying "Cap does not matter" need to explain to me why all these other teams have dead cap space that they can not use?  How does that make them smarter than the Bengals?


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