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RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - NUGDUKWE - 09-24-2024
Listening to Goodberry and he made an excellent point. The Bengals have they're valued positions that they decide to pay at the league top value if a player is there. We have all fallen into the thinking that you can't pay a guard top money or can't pay a safety top money or can't pay 2 wr top money. But the point he made was your not going to hit all draft picks and the ones you do you can't afford to let go because you can just magically always hit in the draft again. These group might not fall into your rankings of position importance but you continue to build around them. This has been the Bengals downfall especially when some the guys we've lost has been just do to guaranteed structure. The Bengals way of doing things is not working and it's a FO issue that I'm not sure they will ever own up to.
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - TecmoBengals - 09-24-2024
Duke's drafting is certainly a component of the laundry list of problems with the Bengals organization
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - Whatever - 09-24-2024
(09-24-2024, 03:17 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Listening to Goodberry and he made an excellent point. The Bengals have they're valued positions that they decide to pay at the league top value if a player is there. We have all fallen into the thinking that you can't pay a guard top money or can't pay a safety top money or can't pay 2 wr top money. But the point he made was your not going to hit all draft picks and the ones you do you can't afford to let go because you can just magically always hit in the draft again. These group might not fall into your rankings of position importance but you continue to build around them. This has been the Bengals downfall especially when some the guys we've lost has been just do to guaranteed structure. The Bengals way of doing things is not working and it's a FO issue that I'm not sure they will ever own up to.
Bates comes to mind, but isn't clear cut, as he's been wildly inconsistent his entire career. His PFF grades are...
'18-79.9
'19-61.2
'20-90.1
'21-56.1
'22-76.8
'23-90.6
'24-69.3
He can be anything from All Pro to straight garbage depending on the year.
Zeitler is about the only other example I can remember.
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - NUGDUKWE - 09-24-2024
(09-24-2024, 03:36 PM)Whatever Wrote: Bates comes to mind, but isn't clear cut, as he's been wildly inconsistent his entire career. His PFF grades are...
'18-79.9
'19-61.2
'20-90.1
'21-56.1
'22-76.8
'23-90.6
'24-69.3
He can be anything from All Pro to straight garbage depending on the year.
Zeitler is about the only other example I can remember.
Yeah those are the two examples he mentioned. But the idea you can't pay 2 receivers or even players that weren't drafted but are in the building. I mean we are about to let Higgins walk and what do we do? This team that we can all see has some holes that need filled are going to devote another high pick at WR to replace or take a later guy and almost assuredly have a drop off.
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - Nicomo Cosca - 09-24-2024
(09-24-2024, 03:36 PM)Whatever Wrote: Zeitler is about the only other example I can remember.
That’s a big one though. Considering it was a guard that cost us a Super Bowl win.
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - Joelist - 09-24-2024
On the bright side Mims, All and Jenkins looked pretty good last night.
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - Whatever - 09-24-2024
(09-24-2024, 03:43 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Yeah those are the two examples he mentioned. But the idea you can't pay 2 receivers or even players that weren't drafted but are in the building. I mean we are about to let Higgins walk and what do we do? This team that we can all see has some holes that need filled are going to devote another high pick at WR to replace or take a later guy and almost assuredly have a drop off.
It makes sense in theory, though Tee is a bad example. With multiple holes to fill, if you need a guy at an expensive position (WR, in this case, but have a very high hit rate with premium picks at that position, it makes sense to use the draft pick and use the cap dollars on holes you don't draft and develop well. However, if we apply that theory to DE, it holds up, because we suck at drafting and developing edge rushers.
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - NUGDUKWE - 09-24-2024
(09-24-2024, 05:35 PM)Whatever Wrote: It makes sense in theory, though Tee is a bad example. With multiple holes to fill, if you need a guy at an expensive position (WR, in this case, but have a very high hit rate with premium picks at that position, it makes sense to use the draft pick and use the cap dollars on holes you don't draft and develop well. However, if we apply that theory to DE, it holds up, because we suck at drafting and developing edge rushers.
I get what your saying at WR and have had that same thought in regards to Tee. But we are gonna need high picks in other places and if we have to devote to WR it hurts those positions. But at this point I'm not suggesting signing Tee but if we had been proactive and signed him earlier than we could have worked his contract around. I think the Bengals need to stop worry about making sure contracts work out all the way in the future to some degree. Sign the good players you have drafted or FA and then figure out how to make it work in the future. Whether that's signing bonuses to free up cap space or potentially trading a player if you find the replacement or money needs prove to more important.
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - samhain - 09-24-2024
They are pretty good at drafting receivers and that's about it. I guess they've improved at drafting linebackers.
I think this season is showing the team just how many holes are in the dam. It's going to be nearly impossible to sign reinforcements for the defense in you pay Chase what he's going to want. On top of that, you're not winning ballgames even when he's performing at a high level. Is that worth what he's going to demand?
IMO they're going to have to churn him out for picks, draft more receivers, and find defensive help in FA.
We all really like Ja'marr, but I'm not convinced that this organization can field a competitive roster when they start paying out top dollar to two guys in Burrow and Chase. It would be incredibly tough to see him go, but I have a feeling that it might be a bit easier if the season goes to shit and his attitude suffers as a result.
One day it may look like a big mistake to let Reader/Bates walk with an eye on paying Chase. They impact of losing both defenders was immediate and brutal and also shows no sign of being resolved.
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - TheLeonardLeap - 09-24-2024
(09-24-2024, 04:48 PM)Joelist Wrote: On the bright side Mims, All and Jenkins looked pretty good last night.
He did? Gave up a sack and had a penalty at the very least. In just barely over a half of football.
Can't speak definitively on Jenkins, but Daniels had about an eternity in the pocket to throw.
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - ochocincos - 09-24-2024
(09-24-2024, 10:07 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Blame the coaches, blame the defense, blame whoever.
The real issue? The talent on the roster. It's not good enough, especially on the defensive side of the ball.
The 2021 Super Bowl team was built on free agency - Reader, Chido, Hendrickson, Hilton, Reiff, Vonn Bell. The Bengals have added or replaced some of that talent bringing in Cappa, Karras, Orlando Brown Jr, Geno Stone, Rankins who are on their current roster.
My question is this - where are the draft picks? Other than the Burrow and Chase LAY UPS, who have we drafted since 2019 that you'd consider a good positional NFL player? Higgins, CTB, Logan Wilson. That's it.
The Bengals have WHIFFED in the draft over the past 5 years.
When is Duke Tobin going to be held accountable? Who's responsible for the drafting of guys, especially on the defensive side of the ball? Does Lou have a say? Because he sure seemed giddy every time he was at the podium after we drafted 3 straight defensive players in the first 3 rounds last year.
They need more out of the draft. We can't continue whiffing on first round picks like Dax Hill and second round picks like Jackson Carman. We can't have drafts like 2021 where literally no one is contributing other than Chase. Everyone LOVED this years class, but who is contributing on the defensive side of the ball? It's been pathetic.
I agree, personally.
The only real good draft picks from last year it seems are either injured (Murphy) or relegated to the bench (Battle, Turner).
No one from this current draft class has shown much of anything in regular season games thus far for variety of reasons.
Dax Hill is playing position musical chairs trying to find something that works.
Charlie Jones was arguably a reach if all he's going to be used for is a PR.
Iosivas seems like just a RZ threat, but he is contributing more than most 6th rounders, so I'll give the team that.
Carter and Ossai still in Year 3/4 haven't developed into guys we thought they'd become based on their collegiate profiles.
What I remember liking about Dax Hill, Jackson Carman, Zach Carter, Joseph Ossai was their CEILING.
However, they all were mostly transitioning to new positions because of one reason or another.
Hill had the skill set for single high FS but hadn't really played it. SS was what be probably was best at in college.
Carman was most successful at LT in college but probably wasn't going to be successful there in NFL. He hadn't really played (much) OG even though most thought he could transition to that.
Carter was a tweener who many thought would be best suited inside at 3T once he bulked up, but he might have been best suited as 3-4 DE based on size and skill set.
Ossai was a former LB transitioning to full-time DE. He may just not be suited for true 4-3 DE and have his hand in the dirt, instead suited for a true 3-4 OLB.
There have been a couple solid guys though out of the bunch outside the Top 40, mainly CTB.
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - kalibengal - 09-24-2024
(09-24-2024, 10:20 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The bottom line is that with the salary structures in the NFL, you HAVE to draft well each year. And we don't. Now that we pay Burrow highly and will pay Chase highly, it makes that even more of a premium.
smallest scouting dept in NFL and NO GM, and it shows
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - WeezyBengal - 10-27-2024
Bump. Now Myles Murphy looking like a whiff.
Fire Tobin. Continued whiffs in the draft and free agency.
Blame ZT and the staff all you want (and yes, they are bad), but this roster is ASS.
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - THE PISTONS - 10-27-2024
Are we whiffing or are the coaches not developing guys? Or both?
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - WeezyBengal - 10-27-2024
(10-27-2024, 06:03 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Are we whiffing or are the coaches not developing guys? Or both?
Could be both. Fire them all into the sun.
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - CJD - 10-27-2024
In the Zac Taylor era, outside of the 2020 draft where they had the #1 overall pick and made a bunch of drop dead obvious selections like Burrow, Higgins and Wilson, the Bengals have drafted one truly elite player.
And a ton of busts.
The drafting process is fundamentally broken.
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - Frank Booth - 10-27-2024
(10-27-2024, 06:03 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Are we whiffing or are the coaches not developing guys? Or both?
well this team has absolutely failed at drafting trench players since later in the Marvin Lewis era. so make of that what you will
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - J24 - 10-27-2024
(10-27-2024, 06:33 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: well this team has absolutely failed at drafting trench players since later in the Marvin Lewis era. so make of that what you will
This!
Also, Katie and her dumbass husband need to held accountable for the roster being poor. Letting both Reader and Bates go has killed this defense.
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - jj22 - 10-27-2024
If they fire Zac and not Tobin then it’s all for naught. The pre Zac draft years (good drafts) seemed to be Marvin and his coaching staffs doing. He’s had his shot to build this team and I agree failed outside of the obvious choices.
The move may be to fire Tobin after the season. Zac is supposedly an up and coming coach with post season success. A sb appearance. I’m most disappointed he’s allowed it to continue being status quo. They changed their FA philosophy under him. But not much else. He hasn’t shaken up the FO like he could have coaching with that resume. He should have struck while the iron was hot. And maybe he did with the locker and indoor practice facilities.
Before he’s fired or thinks he will be he should point to these drafts. And see who MB would choose in a power struggle. Would Mike and Katie chose Tobin?
RE: Duke Tobin and the Bengals are WHIFFING in the draft - J24 - 10-27-2024
(10-27-2024, 08:07 PM)jj22 Wrote: If they fire Zac and not Tobin then it’s all for naught. The pre Zac draft years (good drafts) seemed to be Marvin and his coaching staffs doing. He’s had his shot to build this team and I agree failed outside of the obvious choices.
The move may be to fire Tobin after the season. Zac is supposedly an up and coming coach with post season success. A sb appearance. I’m most disappointed he’s allowed it to continue being status quo. They changed their FA philosophy under him. But not much else. He hasn’t shaken up the FO like he could have coaching with that resume. He should have struck while the iron was hot. And maybe he did with the locker and indoor practice facilities.
Before he’s fired or thinks he will be he should point to these drafts. And see who MB would choose in a power struggle. Would Mike and Katie chose Tobin?
Add the dumbass Blackburns to the list. The willing to not pay players has Katie and what's his name seems like their fault .