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+--- Thread: Troy Walters (/thread-39847.html)
RE: Troy Walters - Forever Spinning Vinyl - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 01:03 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Just going off the eye test I thought Yoshi somewhat improved throughout the season. He started making some tougher catches between the 20’s in big moments. I’m not fooling myself that he’ll be anything more than a 4th or 5th option in this offense (Chase Brown and Gesicki both had more targets and receptions), but he’s at the very least earning his roster spot.
He did seem to gain more confidence in Joe and the coaches. He may develop into a true 3rd WR but they'll probably never go back to the three wide receiver offense as a base so it may not be as important as with Boyd, I still see this becoming more and more of a two TE base formation. They carried 5 TEs all season long and that'll probably be the system going forward.
RE: Troy Walters - Whatever - 01-09-2025
(01-08-2025, 07:19 PM)jj22 Wrote: People are going to be upset that I bring this up but we have to talk.
Why does Walters get a pass? Many claim he is a great coach, but say Chase and Tee were no brainers when it comes to Tobin picks.
Now if Chase and Tee were no brainer picks, then where is the development of all these wide receivers we've drafted?
Why does he get a pass around here?
Who are all these WR's we've drafted?
Tee is good player. Can't put injuries on Walters.
Chase is the #1 WR in the league.
Chuck Fizzle has been a bust thus far, but he's a 4th round pick. Like, half of 4th round picks don't make it through their rookie deals.
Yoshi is meh, but ahead of the curve for a 6th rounder.
Burton has shown talent, but he's a head case. I don't think you can put character issues on Walters, either.
I don't really get the complaint, unless you expect him to turn chicken shit into chicken salad.
RE: Troy Walters - jj22 - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 01:24 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: how.do u develop a guy always hurt and a guy that seems out og control...
We haven't had any practice squad players or UDFA develop either. We've seen development from late picks, UDFA, practice squad players on other positions. Oline, LB, CB, TE, DE....
RE: Troy Walters - jj22 - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 10:33 AM)Whatever Wrote: I don't really get the complaint, unless you expect him to turn chicken shit into chicken salad.
We expected it from Pollack. Hobby, and Lou... Even though we acknowledge the talent and draft issues.
RE: Troy Walters - jj22 - 01-09-2025
The fact is we are in this position with Tee because we haven't had anyone develop to be able to take his spot. And it isn't because of the lack of trying to replace him.
Why has Walters avoided the wrath of the board? That is what I am trying to figure out. I hear a lot of defense of him, but not any selling as to why he is any different from Pollack or the defensive staff.
RE: Troy Walters - WeezyBengal - 01-09-2025
(01-08-2025, 07:19 PM)jj22 Wrote: People are going to be upset that I bring this up but we have to talk.
Why does Walters get a pass? Many claim he is a great coach, but say Chase and Tee were no brainers when it comes to Tobin picks.
Now if Chase and Tee were no brainer picks, then where is the development of all these wide receivers we've drafted?
Why does he get a pass around here?
The mental gymnastics to try and come up with a "hot take" regarding some of the coaches on this team is truly something.
Tee wasn't a "no brainer" pick and he has developed a ton over the course of his career. Chase was a no brainer, sure, but he has gotten better year after year. Yoshi also took a leap this year. Charlie Jones is Charlie Jones. A 4th round player who can barely stay on the field due to injury.
We've invested a 4th and 7th round pick in WR since Troy has been here. I could make a counter argument that he turned crap into gold with that 7th round Yoshi pick. Those guys aren't guys who usually even make rosters.
RE: Troy Walters - ochocincos - 01-09-2025
(01-08-2025, 10:49 PM)PDub80 Wrote: No, but Gesicki is. Better, honestly, at this point.
Yoshi was a go to when they had a matchup mismatch or a personnel group on the field they could take advantage of in scheme, but I considered him wr #4 this season.
Gesicki is not a WR though, which is why I specifically said for Iosivas "WR3 as the 4th option."
Gesicki is a better 3rd option in the passing game, I agree.
Personally, I don't want to see the Bengals go back to heavy 11 personnel where a 3rd receiver is 3rd option.
I want heavy 12 personnel where the TE is the 3rd option, possibly even 2nd if Higgins leaves.
Obviously you would need a TE who could be good enough to be the 2nd option.
RE: Troy Walters - WeezyBengal - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 10:41 AM)jj22 Wrote: The fact is we are in this position with Tee because we haven't had anyone develop to be able to take his spot. And it isn't because of the lack of trying to replace him.
Why has Walters avoided the wrath of the board? That is what I am trying to figure out. I hear a lot of defense of him, but not any selling as to why he is any different from Pollack or the defensive staff.
Because its freaking different, how can you not see that? His unit is literally one of the best in the league.
That's like Pollack having the best line in the league, us drafting a 4th and 7th rounder over 4 years, and then crying that he didn't "develop" those guys enough to take the place of a pro bowl caliber offensive lineman when he leaves for free agency.
RE: Troy Walters - jj22 - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 10:45 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Tee wasn't a "no brainer" pick and he has developed a ton over the course of his career.
I've heard nothing but him being a no brainer pick from Tobin critics....
Chase is and has always been great.
But thank you for noting that he is getting credit for Chase and Tee. The book on Yoshi is still open as you'll see throughout this thread.
RE: Troy Walters - WeezyBengal - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 10:51 AM)jj22 Wrote: I've heard nothing but him being a no brainer pick from Tobin critics....
Chase is and has always been great.
But thank you for noting that he is getting credit for Chase and Tee.
I haven't once seen the Tee "no brainer" comment from anyone. There isn't a "no brainer" pick in round two pick 33.
Do you think Tee and Jamar have gotten better since their rookie year?
RE: Troy Walters - ochocincos - 01-09-2025
(01-08-2025, 08:43 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yoshi played 79% of the snaps on offense this year, the 6th most on the entire offense (Burrow, the IOL, and Chase are the only who played more).
He caught <60% of his targets from a QB who completed >70% of his attempts.
He broke 0 tackles and had a drop rate >8%.
His 1.9 YAC per reception was 177th/177.
If you care about PFF he was the 124th out of 132 WRs.
Yoshi was really really bad this year and his numbers were simply from the same thing as Auden Tate in 2019 where even a bad WR will put up SOME decent surface numbers so long as you ignore all the efficiency and effectiveness numbers and just keep feeding him volume. That's not improvement, that's just ignoring that playing him and throwing him the ball is not a good idea.
The only time he's worth an NFL roster spot is when we're inside our opponent's 10.
All I'm sayin is he's still outperformed a high majority of 6th round guys in their 2nd years.
I'm not saying he's a long-term keeper yet. He has 2 years left on his rookie contract to show continued growth.
I'll be interested to see what his role ends up being in 2025.
RE: Troy Walters - jj22 - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 10:53 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I haven't once seen the Tee "no brainer" comment from anyone. There isn't a "no brainer" pick in round two pick 33.
Do you think Tee and Jamar have gotten better since their rookie year?
I don't think Tee has developed. He is the same player he has always been.
Chase has always been a generational talent.
And if you are going to take shots about "hot takes" then you may want to read the room. And maybe read some of the Tobin threads.
RE: Troy Walters - WeezyBengal - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 10:54 AM)jj22 Wrote: I don't think Tee has developed. He is the same player he has always been.
Chase has always been a generational talent.
And if you are going to take shots about "hot takes" then you may want to read the room. And maybe read some of the Tobin threads.
2020 (16 games played)
4 receptions per game
56 yards per game
6 TDs
2024 (12 games played)
6 receptions per game
76 yards per game
10 TDs
That's not even mentioning how much of a better blocker he has become.
RE: Troy Walters - jj22 - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 10:59 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: 2020 (16 games played)
4 receptions per game
56 yards per game
6 TDs
2024 (12 games played)
6 receptions per game
76 yards per game
10 TDs
That's not even mentioning how much of a better blocker he has become.
Development isn't about stats. 2 more receptions and 20 more yards per game in 4 years doesn't tell me much. That can happen with improved QB play, change in Offense system, more targets etc.
Tee's routes haven't changed, he isn't creating more (or less) separation, he's the same player overall. A big bodied boundary receiver and redzone threat.
RE: Troy Walters - ochocincos - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 10:53 AM)ochocincos Wrote: All I'm sayin is he's still outperformed a high majority of 6th round guys in their 2nd years.
I'm not saying he's a long-term keeper yet. He has 2 years left on his rookie contract to show continued growth.
I'll be interested to see what his role ends up being in 2025.
And as a follow up to this, I decided to look up the 4th receiving option in each of the Top 7 teams in passing:
CIN - Iosivas - 479 yards, 6 TDs
DET - Tim Patrick - 394 yards, 3 TDs (Jahymr Gibbs does have more receiving yards and is technically 4th at 517 yards, 4 TDs, but I was looking for 4th WR/TE. Even so, Gibbs would be right there with the rest of these guys if we consider him 4th option)
TB - Jalen McMillan - 461 yards, 8 TDs
SEA - Noah Fant - 500 yards, 1 TD
MIN - Jalen Nailor - 414 yards, 6 TDs
BAL - Isaiah Likely - 477 yards, 6 TDs
KC - Noah Gray - 437 yards, 5 TDs
The reality is Iosivas is right up there with the rest of the 4th options in production.
Let's also look at the 3rd option of each:
CIN - Gesicki - 665 yards, 2 TDs
DET - Sam LaPorta - 726 yards, 7 TDs
TB - Cade Otton (because Godwin was 2nd option until he went down to injury) - 600 yards, 4 TDs
SEA - Tyler Lockett - 600 yards, 2 TDs
MIN - TJ Hockenson (10 games) - 455 yards, 0 TDs
BAL - Mark Andrews - 673 yards, 11 TDs
KC - DeAndre Hopkins (10 games) - 436 yards, 4 TDs
Gesicki was also right up there with the other 3rd options in the other high passing offenses.
I think some people need to change their expectations some about what a 3rd and 4th option should be producing.
RE: Troy Walters - Nicomo Cosca - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 10:41 AM)jj22 Wrote: The fact is we are in this position with Tee because we haven't had anyone develop to be able to take his spot. And it isn't because of the lack of trying to replace him.
Why has Walters avoided the wrath of the board? That is what I am trying to figure out. I hear a lot of defense of him, but not any selling as to why he is any different from Pollack or the defensive staff.
The only guy I’d say who was a serious attempt at replacing Tee is Burton. I don’t believe for a second that the team figured a couple of day 3 picks like Yoshi and Jones were going to be on that level.
RE: Troy Walters - TheLeonardLeap - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 10:53 AM)ochocincos Wrote: All I'm sayin is he's still outperformed a high majority of 6th round guys in their 2nd years.
I'm not saying he's a long-term keeper yet. He has 2 years left on his rookie contract to show continued growth.
I'll be interested to see what his role ends up being in 2025.
Quote:He caught <60% of his targets from a QB who completed >70% of his attempts.
He broke 0 tackles and had a drop rate >8%.
His 1.9 YAC per reception was 177th/177.
If you care about PFF he was the 124th out of 132 WRs.
Last year his catch rate was actually 1% better.
He broke the same 0 tackles last year. His drop rate was actually 0.2% lower last year.
His YAC was actually 0.4 better last year.
Don't know what his PFF grade was last year, but it's not like 124th out of 132 is leaving much room for him to have improved this year.
The only growth was in snaps and targets, but he didn't actually grow from a efficiency or positivity standpoint. All those numbers got worse from an already bad starting point.
This is people convincing themselves that Tanner Hudson is a viable TE1 last offseason, or that Trenton Irwin would replace Tyler Boyd at WR3. That's just throwing the ball a good amount of times to scrubs in an extremely pass heavy offense (most of the time from Joe Burrow). It's not that they're actually good.
Welcome to having a top QB.
In 2021, the Chiefs had Byron Pringle a 3rd year UDFA get 568 yards and 5 TD because he was suddenly forced into a much increased snap load and target load. Was he good? No, the Chiefs moved on from him and he's been on two teams since and never reached 200 yards.... or in 2023 they'll just turn a Justin Watson into a 460 yard WR even though he only caught 50.9% of his targets, 0 broken tackles, and 1.7 YAC/R.... or the 2013 Patriots with Kembrell Thompson, a rookie UDFA with 466 yards, but it was on a 46.4% catch rate.
If you gave the exact same number of offensive snaps and targets to a decent WR, they'd put up much better numbers.
RE: Troy Walters - TheLeonardLeap - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 11:25 AM)ochocincos Wrote: And as a follow up to this, I decided to look up the 4th receiving option in each of the Top 7 teams in passing:
CIN - Iosivas - 479 yards, 6 TDs
DET - Tim Patrick - 394 yards, 3 TDs (Jahymr Gibbs does have more receiving yards and is technically 4th at 517 yards, 4 TDs, but I was looking for 4th WR/TE. Even so, Gibbs would be right there with the rest of these guys if we consider him 4th option)
TB - Jalen McMillan - 461 yards, 8 TDs
SEA - Noah Fant - 500 yards, 1 TD
MIN - Jalen Nailor - 414 yards, 6 TDs
BAL - Isaiah Likely - 477 yards, 6 TDs
KC - Noah Gray - 437 yards, 5 TDs
And here's the problem with just going "4th options" Ocho. Without even looking, I can all but guarantee that none of those guys came close to the 892 offensive snap workload that Yoshi got.
That's a massive difference in opportunity.
That's not even touching how many of those guys had a triple-crown WR and (half the time) Tee Higgins drawing coverage away?
OR how many of those guys were getting passes thrown to them by Joe Burrow in an MVP-caliber statistical season.
I'm not aware of who a couple of those guys are, but most of them? You give them 892 offensive snaps with Joe Burrow at QB and they CRUSH the numbers they put up this year.
RE: Troy Walters - PDub80 - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 10:49 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Gesicki is not a WR though, which is why I specifically said for Iosivas "WR3 as the 4th option."
Gesicki is a better 3rd option in the passing game, I agree.
Personally, I don't want to see the Bengals go back to heavy 11 personnel where a 3rd receiver is 3rd option.
I want heavy 12 personnel where the TE is the 3rd option, possibly even 2nd if Higgins leaves.
Obviously you would need a TE who could be good enough to be the 2nd option.
I think that's all semantics, though, right? What makes sense to me is to look at the receiving pecking order in terms of targets more than initials by a guy's name.
Gesicki had 83 targets.
Yoshi 61
Chase Brown 65
If the RB is getting more targets than the "WR3" I question if that's really a WR3.... Especially with Higgins down a big chunk of the season.
^ 2023 Tyler Boyd certainly was the 3 with 98 targets.
RE: Troy Walters - ochocincos - 01-09-2025
(Yesterday, 11:57 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: And here's the problem with just going "4th options" Ocho. Without even looking, I can all but guarantee that none of those guys came close to the 892 offensive snap workload that Yoshi got.
That's a massive difference in opportunity.
That's not even touching how many of those guys had a triple-crown WR and (half the time) Tee Higgins drawing coverage away?
OR how many of those guys were getting passes thrown to them by Joe Burrow in an MVP-caliber statistical season.
I'm not aware of who a couple of those guys are, but most of them? You give them 892 offensive snaps with Joe Burrow at QB and they CRUSH the numbers they put up this year.
Bengals had one of the best offenses in the league, especially passing offenses.
There wasn't much more Iosivas or any WR3 was going to be able to do to elevate it.
Man, you act like Iosivas is garbage and shouldn't be on the team.
Maybe instead acknowledge he's a 6th rounder who needed refinement coming out of college, and is doing at least ok in his 2nd year?
At least he contributed something unlike Burton and Jones.
And at least they got Gesicki to help replace Boyd.
I guess I'm not as overly critical with the offense as some.