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+--- Thread: Back to the Future (/thread-13431.html)
RE: Back to the Future - J24 - 11-12-2017
(11-11-2017, 09:39 PM)eoxyod Wrote: If you need all the mentioned factors above to go well to be just a borderline top 10 QB, you need a new QB
That is so BS. 3-4ths of the QB in the NFl need weapons and an offensive line.
RE: Back to the Future - bfine32 - 11-12-2017
(11-12-2017, 01:57 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: "Poor play is Dalton's fault because he needs players to help him."
"Poor play isn't Ogbuehi's fault because they don't give him enough help."
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I suppose if you do not consider that one is a seasoned veteran and one if starting his first year then this post makes sense. Outside of that; just a wasted effort.
RE: Back to the Future - Daddy-O - 11-12-2017
(11-11-2017, 02:56 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I have a couple questions? What could we realistically get for Andy? What are we willing to do in free agency and via trade to improve this team? If we're not going to do anything to fix the problems with this team then we might as well go full rebuild.
They could easily get a number 1 for AD. QB's play in the NFL now is generally terrible, only a select few teams have productive QB's a a few of those are injured.
AD is considered by most to be a top 15 QB. That means there are about 15 teams that need a QB. If Washington doesn't resign Cousins I bet Gruden would gladly talk his bosses into giving up a first rounder for AD.
Just my 2 cents but franchise QB's are hard to come by so their value is extremely high - overvalued to a lot of teams that just can find that guy.
RE: Back to the Future - Daddy-O - 11-12-2017
(11-11-2017, 10:55 PM)eoxyod Wrote: Fortunately we can address 2 issues at the same time
Baker Mayfield
RE: Back to the Future - t3r3e3 - 11-12-2017
(11-11-2017, 12:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It was 1991 and the Bengals were coming off another season in which they had failed to make the playoffs. Their 30-year-old QB was coming off his second subpar season and ownership was looking for a change. Despite pleas from their former MVP signal caller to draft for defense or help along the oline; ownership spent the number 6 overall pick in the 1992 NFL draft on a replacement for their aging QB. The Bengal’s selection at QB never started a full season for the Bengals and was out of the NFL entirely after appearing in only 33 games. The very next pick in the draft was 5-time Pro Bowl/ 3-time All Pro CB Troy Vincent. The following pick was Pro Bowl LT Bob Whitfield who played 220 games in the NFL. The Bengals traded their proven signal caller in after the 92 season and they did not see the playoffs again until 2005 and still have not won a playoff game to date.
It is now 2017 and the Bengals are in the midst of a second straight disappointing season. Our 30-year-old QB is in the middle of his second sub-par season and many are calling for a change at QB. The Bengals appear to be in position to draft one of the top QB prospects in the 2018 draft; however, it would come at the expense of the top olinemen or needed help at DB in the draft.
My position on Andy Dalton has been clear. His poor play is his fault, he doesn't hold his players accountable, and he needs everything around him to click; but when all those things happen he is a borderline Top 10 QB in the NFL. He is still under a team-friendly contract, surrounded by talent at the skill positions, and has a fine defense that is a couple picks away from being elite.
So who wants to go QB early in 2018?
Not me. The next draft needs to net quality OG, C, and T depth. A safety and another LB that can run would be nice too.
RE: Back to the Future - Gamma Ray Tan - 11-12-2017
Fix the O-line first! If a QB is still around in Rd. 4-5, I'd be ok with that. No QB before Rnd.4
RE: Back to the Future - McC - 11-12-2017
(11-12-2017, 12:17 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We're soo far away from a Super Bowl. Our #1 priority should be to rebuild the talent on the roster.
Absolutely. This will not be fixed in one draft, for sure.
RE: Back to the Future - grampahol - 11-12-2017
Andy is quite a serviceable QB so he could bring quite a few good picks in a trade, but you better have someone ready and willing to replace him and replace the entire Oline and the oline (and HC) coach .. It's a huge gamble and lil Mikey isn't the gambling type.
You're fooling yourselves if you think the Brown family is going to roll the dice..
The real problem is that Marvin doesn't clap hard or often enough. He just needs to clap better..
RE: Back to the Future - bengalhoel - 11-12-2017
(11-11-2017, 09:00 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We've got to stop throwing away seasons (and wasting the primes of Bengals greats) hoping 3-4 awful linemen suddenly have a massive turnaround. Og was so awful in year one that it gave me little hope for a turnaround. I guess if you're feeling generous he looks a pinch better this year?
Not good enough to justify gambling another season on him at LT. If the guy needs to basically be hidden or protected in year 4, we have no LT. Bodine, Fisher, Hopkins and Andre are all terrible as well. We need to start from scratch with a new position coach.
This is true. I think that most Bengals fans would be patient for the system to work if we showed progress during the season. I havent seen anything yet that would show that this coaching staff knows what it is doing or that we should be patient with this offensive line.
You dont lose fans by making bad draft picks or signing a bad FA or two. You lose them by doing nothing about it and making the same mistakes over and over.
I wonder how many times Mike Brown has burnt his toast before he decided to turn the heat down on the toaster?
RE: Back to the Future - Go Cards - 11-12-2017
(11-12-2017, 10:49 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I suppose if you do not consider that one is a seasoned veteran and one if starting his first year then this post makes sense. Outside of that; just a wasted effort.
Curious after reading this why you are so hard on Mixon who is actually in his first NFL season then ?
Ced has had plenty of time to show something.
Not saying he should be great but be average at least. Dalton was above average in his first year and led Bengals to more playoff appearances in a row than any other Bengals QB.
Until Ced came along of course.
RE: Back to the Future - grampahol - 11-12-2017
In a profit sharing league there's really no incentive to get better or win at all. The Brown family have never lost money. Instead they only get more wealthy no matter how bad the team plays. Owning an NFL team is a license to print money, even the worst team in the league. The only way they could lose money is if they decided to hand out $1000 dollar bills to every single fan every single day and even then they'd find some tax loophole and find a way to write that off ..
Now, if they start doing that I'll start going to games..
RE: Back to the Future - bengalhoel - 11-12-2017
(11-12-2017, 12:17 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We're soo far away from a Super Bowl. Our #1 priority should be to rebuild the talent on the roster.
1 and a half seasons ago we tied for the best record in the AFC and should have one a playoff game with a back up QB. I dont think it is as bad as you say it is.
Well it wouldn't be for most teams. We need a new staff and a decent line which I guess is completely out of reach or a team like this. So maybe you are right.
Hell I dont know about this team anymore.
RE: Back to the Future - Shake n Blake - 11-12-2017
(11-12-2017, 05:06 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: That is so BS. 3-4ths of the QB in the NFl need weapons and an offensive line.
Sad that this even needs said. Not sure if people are overestimating QB's in general or underestimating what surrounds them. Probably a bit of both.
Either way, I could name around 30 teams with a better cast for their QB right now. Name me a good QB this year, and I'll show you a far better cast than what we have going on. I almost want to say drafting AJ Green was a mistake, simply because it's made fans overestimate our offense for years. Now he and Dalton are literally all we have going for us and some still think we're ok and just need a new QB.
RE: Back to the Future - CKwi88 - 11-12-2017
I'll preface this by saying I don't watch College Football.
The only way I take a QB where we'll be drafting in the first round (I'm imaging a top 5 pick for the purposes of this post) is if it one of those stereotypical "prototype franchise QB" that will clearly be an upgrade over Dalton in short order.
The league is largely a have- or-have-not league when it comes to super bowl winning quality QBs, with a few young QBs that are question marks. Do I think Dalton could go on a Joe Flacco-esque run and win it all? Sure it's possible, but looking at a list of the QBs to win the Superbowl, you largely need a Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Roethlisberger. The good supporting cast isn't enough.
At the same time, reaching for a QB high in the draft can set your franchise back. Look no further than the in state rival. So in this draft, if we have the choice between reaching for a QB and a (near) no-miss O lineman prospect, I take O line all day. But if there is a special talent at QB, use the other picks to protect him
RE: Back to the Future - jfkbengals - 11-12-2017
(11-11-2017, 12:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It was 1991 and the Bengals were coming off another season in which they had failed to make the playoffs. Their 30-year-old QB was coming off his second subpar season and ownership was looking for a change. Despite pleas from their former MVP signal caller to draft for defense or help along the oline; ownership spent the number 6 overall pick in the 1992 NFL draft on a replacement for their aging QB. The Bengal’s selection at QB never started a full season for the Bengals and was out of the NFL entirely after appearing in only 33 games. The very next pick in the draft was 5-time Pro Bowl/ 3-time All Pro CB Troy Vincent. The following pick was Pro Bowl LT Bob Whitfield who played 220 games in the NFL. The Bengals traded their proven signal caller in after the 92 season and they did not see the playoffs again until 2005 and still have not won a playoff game to date.
It is now 2017 and the Bengals are in the midst of a second straight disappointing season. Our 30-year-old QB is in the middle of his second sub-par season and many are calling for a change at QB. The Bengals appear to be in position to draft one of the top QB prospects in the 2018 draft; however, it would come at the expense of the top olinemen or needed help at DB in the draft.
My position on Andy Dalton has been clear. His poor play is his fault, he doesn't hold his players accountable, and he needs everything around him to click; but when all those things happen he is a borderline Top 10 QB in the NFL. He is still under a team-friendly contract, surrounded by talent at the skill positions, and has a fine defense that is a couple picks away from being elite.
So who wants to go QB early in 2018?
For the record, this is a false narrative. Esiason requested his trade at the end of the 1991 season. It was denied at that time, but he was told that if they could draft a suitable replacement they would grant the trade at the end of the season. Jokes on us, he was never suitable. Esiason once stated that was one of the reasons he was willing to come back for a second tour at the end of his career.
RE: Back to the Future - Yojimbo - 11-12-2017
My dream scenario would involve Marv not returning and a new HC that has QB experience at some level. I think Dalton might be taking on too much of the HC attitude and behaviors. If we had a coach that could get Dalton over the hump as a player, then concentrate on fixing the O-line through the draft, FA and new coach (bye PA), then our window could still be open. If Marv gets re-signed, it would be better to trade Dalton and start fresh, again.
RE: Back to the Future - bfine32 - 11-12-2017
(11-12-2017, 01:12 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Curious after reading this why you are so hard on Mixon who is actually in his first NFL season then ?
Ced has had plenty of time to show something.
Not saying he should be great but be average at least. Dalton was above average in his first year and led Bengals to more playoff appearances in a row than any other Bengals QB.
Until Ced came along of course.
Personally I think Mixon is a punk so that may play a factor; although I try to put that aside. But outside of that; I am harder on Mixon because I thought/think we have better options on the team. With Ced there is no one else. I also pull for the underdog; it's in my nature. Folks are fawning all over Mixon and he hasn't done jack; while folks criticize Ced and are blind to any improvement he is making.
Now with Hill going down I can get more behind the Mixon must get touches group.
RE: Back to the Future - BengalChris - 11-12-2017
(11-11-2017, 12:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It was 1991 and the Bengals were coming off another season in which they had failed to make the playoffs. Their 30-year-old QB was coming off his second subpar season and ownership was looking for a change. Despite pleas from their former MVP signal caller to draft for defense or help along the oline; ownership spent the number 6 overall pick in the 1992 NFL draft on a replacement for their aging QB. The Bengal’s selection at QB never started a full season for the Bengals and was out of the NFL entirely after appearing in only 33 games. The very next pick in the draft was 5-time Pro Bowl/ 3-time All Pro CB Troy Vincent. The following pick was Pro Bowl LT Bob Whitfield who played 220 games in the NFL. The Bengals traded their proven signal caller in after the 92 season and they did not see the playoffs again until 2005 and still have not won a playoff game to date.
It is now 2017 and the Bengals are in the midst of a second straight disappointing season. Our 30-year-old QB is in the middle of his second sub-par season and many are calling for a change at QB. The Bengals appear to be in position to draft one of the top QB prospects in the 2018 draft; however, it would come at the expense of the top olinemen or needed help at DB in the draft.
My position on Andy Dalton has been clear. His poor play is his fault, he doesn't hold his players accountable, and he needs everything around him to click; but when all those things happen he is a borderline Top 10 QB in the NFL. He is still under a team-friendly contract, surrounded by talent at the skill positions, and has a fine defense that is a couple picks away from being elite.
So who wants to go QB early in 2018?
I'd pass on QB in the 1st round. If a top QB falls to us in the 2nd round, then I'd probably take them as a backup.
But it all depends on OL talent available. Frankly, this team should be looking for 4 or 5 OLmen in this draft.
RE: Back to the Future - Go Cards - 11-12-2017
(11-12-2017, 02:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Personally I think Mixon is a punk so that may play a factor; although I try to put that aside. But outside of that; I am harder on Mixon because I thought/think we have better options on the team. With Ced there is no one else. I also pull for the underdog; it's in my nature. Folks are fawning all over Mixon and he hasn't done jack; while folks criticize Ced and are blind to any improvement he is making.
Now with Hill going down I can get more behind the Mixon must get touches group.
Fair enough and he may be a punk or it may have been an isolated incident by an adolescent that he learns from and moves forward to become a good man.
Jury is still out on that one and agree he should be on a short leash when it comes to leeway in such matters. Will never agree or like what he did though. But did some stupid things as teenager as well so tend to forgive early on until it becomes a pattern.
Did not want Mixon or Ross above OL help personally yet they are Bengals now per fools wanting flash over trench help.
Going on memory but seems you have defended Pacman when many have called for his release. Could be wrong though.
Now that cat is the punk of punks.
RE: Back to the Future - bfine32 - 11-12-2017
(11-12-2017, 02:43 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Fair enough and he may be a punk or it may have been an isolated incident by an adolescent that he learns from and moves forward to become a good man.
Jury is still out on that one and agree he should be on a short leash when it comes to leeway in such matters. Will never agree or like what he did though. But did some stupid things as teenager as well so tend to forgive early on until it becomes a pattern.
Did not want Mixon or Ross above OL help personally yet they are Bengals now per fools wanting flash over trench help.
Going on memory but seems you have defended Pacman when many have called for his release. Could be wrong though.
Now that cat is the punk of punks.
You could not be more wrong about my opinion of PacMan; I absolutely hate that the Bengals continue to employ him. Matter of fact I think I was the only one that wanted to keep Leon over him.