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+--- Thread: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. (/thread-12017.html)
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - rfaulk34 - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 09:37 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Which clips were I too rough on?
Whitworth was an exception not the rule. He's a freak. And his technique with his feet was damn near flawless. He'd hit his landmarks in his sleep.
He get wide but he'd also work his hands in. Ced does not have the benefit having the strength of Whitworth.
What specifically looks better though? The only difference is what he's being asked to do...which is limiting what we see from the offense.
You can look at his college tape and see the same issues in his hands, passiveness and sets.
You see it in his tape as a pro.
You see it now.
That is why it matters.
It's preseason, so results don't matter. But technique still does. Him giving up 0 sacks doesn't matter when you realize the lengths they took to make things so.
Overall, i think you're being rough based on expecting him to get to a certain level with his technique. What if he's just not capable of doing that? What if he is always going to be what he is now?
I'd say you're looking at it strictly from the perspective of how a room full of coaches would critique him if they were sitting in a film room. That's fine with me. As i said, i like having to look at/for things i might not have otherwise looked for.
For the Bengals though, on the field, if his guy doesn't hit the QB or make the tackle, i claim that as a win as a football and Bengals fan. If he's never the technician that other really good T's are, but he keeps his guy off the Bengal with the ball, i'm happy with it.
I can pull up any game (and have) from last year that he started in and see him flailing all over the place. I wondered all along if he had a bad shoulder because he simply wouldn't use his arms and hands to fight guys off. He'd lean into them and try to control them that way and it didn't work. When i watched the game Friday night, from an instant reaction and watching it over again, i still felt trepidation because he was doing better but you could still see the indecisiveness on double moves and you could still see guys running around him a couple times.
BUT...let's talk about your big but, Simone...my overall gut reaction was that he's getting better at his job. And i REALLY trust my gut.
For my own satisfaction, i hope you keep posting. I may not have agreed with it all but i appreciate the work that was put into it and there's plenty to digest and discuss.
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - RoyleRedlegs - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 09:54 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Overall, i think you're being rough based on expecting him to get to a certain level with his technique. What if he's just not capable of doing that? What if he is always going to be what he is now?
I'd say you're looking at it strictly from the perspective of how a room full of coaches would critique him if they were sitting in a film room. That's fine with me. As i said, i like having to look at/for things i might not have otherwise looked for.
For the Bengals though, on the field, if his guy doesn't hit the QB or make the tackle, i claim that as a win as a football and Bengals fan. If he's never the technician that other really good T's are, but he keeps his guy off the Bengal with the ball, i'm happy with it.
I can pull up any game (and have) from last year that he started in and see him flailing all over the place. I wondered all along if he had a bad shoulder because he simply wouldn't use his arms and hands to fight guys off. He'd lean into them and try to control them that way and it didn't work. When i watched the game Friday night, from an instant reaction and watching it over again, i still felt trepidation because he was doing better but you could still see the indecisiveness on double moves and you could still see guys running around him a couple times.
BUT...let's talk about your big but, Simone...my overall gut reaction was that he's getting better at his job. And i REALLY trust my gut.
For my own satisfaction, i hope you keep posting. I may not have agreed with it all but i appreciate the work that was put into it and there's plenty to digest and discuss.
If that's all he's able to do, then that's all he is able to do. Which is kind of my stance, but I still think it's really worth pointing out and explaining so people better understand the position and techniques of an offensive linemen so more conversations can be held beyond "he gave up a sack" or "he didn't give up a sack" and look at the how and why and understand why some guys are more successful than others and how nuanced the position actually is and that calling other positions "skill positions" but not OL is horseshit.
(Okay I do that last one, I blame social conditioning)
I agree they can see that as a personal win and live snap to snap with him. But I don't think you can bank on that and it's incredibly risky to try and make a playoff push like that. Especially with a QB who gets as happy footed as Dalton does.
OL play is about being able to repeat the process 70+ times a game. Or however many plays you have. I think teams are averaging like 70 now or something.
It's about being able to hit your landmarks and have a repeatable stance. As silly as it sounds (because Im going to use hyperbole a bit), if you're an OL and you lose once a game and it yields a sack you will give up 16 sacks a year. And you will be labeled a bad player. Think about that. If you aren't hitting your landmarks and giving your all every rep...and if it's only 69 of 70...you can be labeled a bad player. Yet if you are a defensive play, who only wins once a game and it results in sack and you get 16 sacks in a year...you're getting 180 million dollars. Or thereabouts. Likely from the Buccaneers, only to get released and re-signed in Cincinnati.
I think people just lack levels of understanding about OL play. What seems like being rough is just basic criticism of his technique. Maybe I will do this for Fisher too, if I have the time. He isn't perfect but you see fewer of these problems.
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - bfine32 - 08-14-2017
OP is simply piling on to a popular theme.
Ced's performance was just fine in the last preseason game.
Let's wait until he struggles to decipher why. No need to decipher why he did well.
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - RoyleRedlegs - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 10:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: OP is simply piling on to a popular theme.
Ced's performance was just fine in the last preseason game.
Let's wait until he struggles to decipher why. No need to decipher why he did well.
Look another one who doesn't want to actually discuss it.
Tell me, from a technique standpoint, what did he do well?
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - bfine32 - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 10:09 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Look another one who doesn't want to actually discuss it.
Tell me, from a technique standpoint, what did he do well?
Protected the QB.
Opened holes in the running game.
AKA, blocked his man
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - RoyleRedlegs - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 10:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Protected the QB.
Opened holes in the running game.
AKA, blocked his man
Scheme protected the QB.
If you read the post, you'd see that was the plan.
Good chat.
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - Wyche'sWarrior - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 07:11 PM)McC Wrote: Whatever. He won't need coaches. He'll have an army of amateurs riding his ass all year.
Maybe his position coach is part of the problem.....
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - Wyche'sWarrior - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 07:17 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: He wasn't really better. That's the point.
And this is proof you didn't read or try to comprehend what I wrote.
He still has the same technique flaws he had last year. They have not gone away.
Neither QB got sacked because there was never TIME for them to be sacked. This is the giveaway you made no effort to actually understand this.
The offense was designed to be quick short passes. There was never time to be sacked. So when the QB got the ball it was out. There was no time to roll or drop back. It was get the ball and out. I literally explain this above. They hid his inability to sustain a block with this style of offense.
Ever notice how people never rag on Boling or Eifert? Because they are good. If you don't want him to get ragged on, write him a letter and ask him to play better football and people will stop.
I noted this earlier in another thread with another poster.....if we have to rely on quick-fire, timing and reads...we will see more INTs due to CBs jumping routes. It ABSOLUTELY is a big problem.
That said....even though he still has these issues....he still played better than he did all last season. That's sad AND scary.
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - Synric - 08-14-2017
The very first play you have shown you say Ced doesn't get enough depth and gives the OLB the edge is wrong. That was a screen pass normally your QB isnt moving 15 behind the LoS...
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - bfine32 - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 10:12 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Scheme protected the QB.
If you read the post, you'd see that was the plan.
Good chat.
How do you know if the scheme was different that his approach to blocking would not be different?
He blocked according to the plan and it was successful. I have no desire to entertain how he did it poorly; as he did not.
Brings to mind a time when someone tried to tell me that if a snap was slightly high to a tall QB it would be way over the head of a smaller QB. As if a lineman does not adjust to assignments.
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - RoyleRedlegs - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 10:15 PM)Wyche Wrote: Maybe his position coach is part of the problem.....
I think there's a large part of this that's accurate. Especially in the prospect scouting department.
(08-14-2017, 10:20 PM)Wyche Wrote: I noted this earlier in another thread with another poster.....if we have to rely on quick-fire, timing and reads...we will see more INTs due to CBs jumping routes. It ABSOLUTELY is a big problem.
That said....even though he still has these issues....he still played better than he did all last season. That's sad AND scary.
I think if he played better it was scheme. There's really not any improvements I've seen from a technique stand point.
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - RoyleRedlegs - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 10:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: How do you know if the scheme was different that his approach to blocking would not be different?
He blocked according to the plan and it was successful. I have no desire to entertain how he did it poorly; as he did not.
Brings to mind a time when someone tried to tell me that if a snap was slightly high to a tall QB it would be way over the head of a smaller QB. As if a lineman does not adjust to assignments.
Then bye?
If you don't wish to engage in conversation, I'm unsure of why you are in here?
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - bfine32 - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 10:27 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Then bye?
If you don't wish to engage in conversation, I'm unsure of why you are in here?
By "engage in the conversation" I assume you mean agree with you.
Dude did his job.
Bye.
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - RoyleRedlegs - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 10:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: By "engage in the conversation" I assume you mean agree with you.
Dude did his job.
Bye.
I meant discussing his technique but again, you failed to mention either.
Have fun in the Ostrich Club.
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - Wyche'sWarrior - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 08:00 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You amuse me with your arrogance. No fan knows more about OL play in pro football than his professional coach who teaches them the technique to use which changes depending on the play call so not as generic as you want to make it out to be. One size does not fit all in the case. You make some valid points, but many points you made were on assumption. not facts.
As for quick throws, a guy named Tom Brady has won multiple Super Bowls leading the league in average release time. Is it because of bad OL play or because of designed scheme that BB does it year after year?
Man....these are elementary fundamentals of the game. If you've ever played the position at even the junior high level....you know Ogbuehi has HORRENDOUS fundamentals. Still. Yes, he is better than last season....doesn't take much....yes, he's still pretty bad.
Whoever evaluated this guy as a round 1 pick should be FIRED. His coaches most likely know he sucks too....they just expected the FO to get Whit back most likely. Now they're stuck with him...so they HAVE to try and pump him up with positive reinforcement.
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - SHRacerX - 08-14-2017
Good stuff....
My take is that right now his run blocking is ahead of his pass blocking...and that is ok. There is no way in practice you could simulate the speed of Noah Spence...at least not in practice. He got caught a couple times by Spence, but no one else. Spence could be an All-Pro....he has that kind of talent.
The Ced I have seen thus far is much better than last year, especially in run blocking. It's only one game, but put me in the category of "He is progressing".
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - bfine32 - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 10:30 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I meant discussing his technique but again, you failed to mention either.
Have fun in the Ostrich Club.
I concern myself more with results than technique, until your technique does not produce results.
Ostrich Club sounds like a hoot.
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - Whatever - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 10:23 PM)Synric Wrote: The very first play you have shown you say Ced doesn't get enough depth and gives the OLB the edge is wrong. That was a screen pass normally your QB isnt moving 15 behind the LoS...
Yup. Or look at the third one.
It's a play action pass. You can see how everyone else on the OL fires out like it's a run play, and you can watch the run fake. The RDE guesses the snap count and gets a great jump. Og realises it and drops to fend him off, and the OP is criticizing him for not getting a good drop on a play that he was never supposed to drop on in the first place. If Og doesn't do that, the play gets blown up and the QB likely gets sacked.
A big part of the issue is that with all the zooming in on Ced, the context of the play and what he's actually supposed to be doing is completely lost.
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - RoyleRedlegs - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 10:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I concern myself more with results than technique, until your technique does not produce results.
Ostrich Club sounds like a hoot.
Good way to build a bad team.
Results mean shit if you can't replicate them.
RE: Cedric Ogbeuhi with moving pictures. - RoyleRedlegs - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 10:23 PM)Synric Wrote: The very first play you have shown you say Ced doesn't get enough depth and gives the OLB the edge is wrong. That was a screen pass normally your QB isnt moving 15 behind the LoS...
It's not about that.
It's about his lack of technique on it.
It's a trend in his play from snap to snap.
Again, not about the results. About the technique issues.