(04-11-2016, 01:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Carson was not pre-Lewis, and neither were almost all of the players on the '05 team that finally made the playoffs.

The '05 offense had only 4 players that started in '02 (Willie Anderson, Rich Braham, Levi Jones, Chad Johnson).  TJ and Rudi were on the team, but even if you count them that is only about half of the offense (6 of 11)

The '05 defense only had TWO player who started in '02 (Justin Smith,,Brian Simmons)

It is absurd to claim that "most" of the contributors to the '05 Division title team were "pre-Marvin" 

(04-11-2016, 01:47 PM)Benton Wrote:  Or the other 45-50 guys who were in place.

(04-11-2016, 01:58 PM)Benton Wrote: Again, we were taking Carson regardless. That had nothing to do with Marvin.

(04-11-2016, 12:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm trying to think of a player or coach that left the Bengals for the Browns and came back, but I'm drawing a blank.

I'm sure it's happened at some point, but I can't think of any examples.

(04-11-2016, 12:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Mike Sheppard worked for the Browns before the Bengals hired him.  I don't think Hue will be barred forever from the bengals just because he left to work for the Browns.  If Hue had left in a lateral move to be their OC I could see MB being mad, but I don't think MB blames hue at all for leaving to take a HC position.

(04-11-2016, 02:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There were only 14 players from the '02 team that were still around in '05, and only 8 were starters.

Se we had replaced 2/3rds of our starters and 3/4ths of our roster.

(04-11-2016, 02:44 PM)Benton Wrote:  getting handed the 4th ranked offense, outside of Andrews and Henry.

(04-11-2016, 03:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And Bobbie Williams, Eric Steinbach, Jeremi Johnson, Chris Perry, Reggie Kelly.

And I doubt any of you were talking about how Marvin was in good shape because he was getting handed a RB who was a 4th round pick and had 17 carries in two seasons (Rudi Johnson).  Or a WR that was a 7th round pick and had only one td and less than 700 yards over his first two seasons (Houshmandzadeh).

(04-11-2016, 10:31 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: marvins extension was just to avoid the lame duck status of a coach in his last year.  this is probly his last shot.

(04-11-2016, 01:04 PM)Benton Wrote: Chad and Carson were pre-Lewis. So was the most contributors of the 2005 team. Carson, Chad, TJ, Willie, Braham, Levi, Rudi. All those pieces were in place. Odell and Chris were the only contributors that year I can think of that Marvin drafted. To me, the organization was already doing things right 4-5 years before Marvin was doing anything.

2001 was really a good starting point. We started drafting well, we started getting some decent FAs. I think the biggest contributor to that was a couple years earlier when we hired Duke Tobin, but that didn't show up for a while. Not until Marvin was already in place as head coach. Honestly I think with Tobin and staff doing things a lot better, most coaches would have had similar success to Marvin.

And that's the problem with the Browns. I can't say what coach deserved 5 years. None of them have had a situation like Marvin walked into, one where scouting and drafting were improving to the point we were drafting quality players and there was already a plan in place. The coaches and QBs of the Browns reflect the institutional problem. You had Farmer and Haslam for two years, Lombardi and Haslam for a year, Eckhart and Haslam for a year, Eckhart and the previous owner for two years, who also had Savage and another guy. Four or five general managers, two owners. There's a lot of different directions to build a team around.

(04-11-2016, 04:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I've actually been saying the same thing about Tobin the last couple days, so obviously I agree with you - but it's not like those things were totally obvious when Marv took the job. we can only say that now with the benefit of hindsight.

Chad, TJ, Rudi, etc were still pretty green going into 2003. Unlike Fred though, I don't think Marv made those players. I also think it's silly to act like Marv flipped the whole team over in 2 years. He didn't. He inherited the core.

All I've been trying to say is that - to Hue - the Browns current sitch probably doesn't look any worse than the sitch Marv walked into, on the surface. Only time will tell.

(04-11-2016, 04:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote:  I also think it's silly to act like Marv flipped the whole team over in 2 years. He didn't. He inherited the core.

(04-11-2016, 05:00 PM)Benton Wrote: Back then I don't think anyone really knew anything about Tobin. And really, it's still mostly speculation. But I like cause and effect, and it wasn't long after we hired Tobin that we started making very good player and personnel decisions. Back then, I was just happy we were drafting better. And you could be right, the Browns may have finally found their Tobin (or Marvin or Katie or whoever it was that changed the environment here).

(04-11-2016, 05:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is not "acting" when I post the numbers.

In two years Marvin flipped 2/3rds of the starters and 3/4ths of the entire roster.

(04-11-2016, 12:08 PM)fullonbehavior Wrote: Anyone who thinks Hue will be back in Cincinnati while Mike Brown is still alive is crazy.  Hue could have taken a job with ANY of the other teams in the league and been welcomed back.  Mike Brown HATES the Cleveland Browns.  As much as MB probably loves Hue, taking a job with the Browns was probably seen as the biggest betrayal to the Brown family possible.

(04-11-2016, 12:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd say Browns fans probably feel the same way about Hue. Carson Wentz looks like a solid prospect. RGIII is the most promising vet they've had in years and could probably play the Kitna role. They have some solid young players, especially if Gordon continues to keep his nose clean. 

(04-11-2016, 06:42 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: As for the Browns, who knows? Maybe this analytics guy will be a big success. It's easy to laugh at them, but I think it's worth a shot.

(04-11-2016, 07:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Figures I say this stuff, then log on to PFT and see the following headlines:

Report: Josh Gordon failed another drug test
Report Suggests Hue Jackson is a Poor Fit for Browns' Analytical Staff