(04-10-2021, 10:20 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: How about the Sewell vs Chase camps meet in the middle and we just go Pitts.

(04-10-2021, 07:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Higgins is faster than Shuster.


Our WRs would have better separation numbers if Burrow didn't float the deep ball.  That gives the DBs time to close on the ball.  That is what "slams the window shut".

(04-10-2021, 09:17 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: This is correct. They need multiple pieces and have one spot to use on an elite guy.

However, I want your opinion on this as well as Nico and other people who are really big into Chase at 5.

Every year the "experts" say the draft is loaded with OL talent on day 2 and day 3. However, at the start of every single NFL season, the talk is how there is a real lack of quality starting NFL offensive linemen. 

Every year (this year included) when free agency begins, there is a huge rush on OL and Edge rushers. I mean, look at this year specifically. The top OL player was Thuney. Maybe you can say Trent Williams but no one thought he was leaving San Fran, it was either re-sign or retire for him. So, let's go with Thuney as next in line. The top WR target, Golliday.

So, day 1 of FA. Thuney, courted by many and signed by a team in cap hell. Didn't matter, when there is an exceptional guy on the OL, you make it work.

Zeitler, an above average OL, signed on day 1, the list goes on of guys that were immediately gobbled up on the line in the start of FA. Tier one and Tier two was empty, before people could even sign officially.

Now compare that to the top WR target.

Golliday had to use the Bengals as leverage to increase his market with the Giants. Think about that, the unquestioned top WR in the class, had to use a team to increase his market. He signed March 21st, well after the legal tampering period and into actual open free agency.

So, around the league, when you have a chance to get elite level OL or Edge rushers, you don't think, you do it. It is clearly viewed that you can find talent at WR much easier around the NFL.

With that logic in mind, why would you pass on elite level OL play to get average OL play in 2?

I get that Chase will be elite at the WR, but again, Golliday is elite and had no market when half the NFL could use him as their #1. We have two solid 1000 yard able receivers on the team. We need a guy that can get deep, and get open and make defenses respect that. He doesn't need to be perfectly polished, he doesn't need to have a complete route tree, he can be a work in progress as long as he can get deep and make the defense respect that.

Again, I understand Chase will be a very good WR. Not saying he won't, I'm simply saying the league has a lack of elite talent on the OL, and it is not lacking for talent at WR.

So, I'm curious with all that knowledge, why are people still clamoring for Chase?

(04-10-2021, 11:17 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Chase and Pitts played against better competition than Sewell did.
That speaks volumes.
Yeah Sewell dominated his competition. But Pitts and Chase
Dominated 1st RD talents.

(04-10-2021, 11:08 PM)PDub80 Wrote: So, great, well thought out points.

A few notes:

- Thuney was a 3rd rounder, which should give everyone hope that there ARE, indeed, good players there. Now, can the Bengals find them? Wellllll, they haven't exactly found them ANYWHERE lately.

- Teams play with 5 linemen on the field at all times. So, there will always be a need for those guys as a premium. WRs tend to be 2 at a time, sometimes 3. The Bengals run a lot of 4 & 5 WR "empty" backfield stuff. They need capable WRs 4 or 5 deep, which is a bit unconventional in the NFL.

- Golliday was coming off a down year with some injuries. No one thought this years FA WR group was THAT strong. Everyone waited on the bigger dominos to fall to see what money was left for WR. He still got SUPER paid, however.

- This year's draft has some really talented guys, yes. I just don't think they have nearly as many outside threats as last year. A lot... A LOT... of the WRs are smaller in stature. While Chase is only 6' something, he is 203-210lbs and considered very very strong. I watched a scouting video on him and it showed how he dealt with teams that tried to press him. He chucked a high draft pick (last year's draft) literally off to the sideline after they laid hands on him. He is wildly strong off the jam. So, Chase is unique in this class in that he is at least 6' and 200+ lbs.

The wideout class last year was EXCELLENT. A lot of strong wideouts have been coming out lately. This also played into why the WR market wasn't booming.

And there weren't a ton of O linemen out on the market to be had. Not to mention some major injuries late in the season had teams THIRSTY for line talent. The Bengals being one of them.

- 1st round offensive linemen have the LEAST likely chance to bust. They tend to be very consistent in their talent. This year's draft has O linemen with starter grades all the way into the 3rd round... at least... according to Tobin via the Hear Theat Podcast Growlin show the Athletic puts on.

So, to answer the elite talent question: Penei Sewell is NOT Orlando Pace or the 2nd coming of Andrew Whitworth or even Trent Williams. I think he is built more like a guard than an elite NFL tackle. His physical testing numbers give him an outside shot of being a top OT. There are only a handful who are considered excellent with his dimensions. He was listed at 6'5" 331, which was eye popping... Measured 6'4" with short arms. I think he has just been built into a mythical figure already, which isn't fair to the kid.

So, ultimately, I think the Bengals could STILL get an excellent O lineman in round 2. I'm not so sold on an excellent WR being there. Either way, there are several positions of need on the team. The debate, which should be fun, BTW, is... what's the BEST way to address BOTH?

For example: Would you rather have Option #1 Chase (Pitts)/Leatherwood or Option #2 Sewell/Bateman?

To me, option #1 looks waaaaaaayyyyyyy better. That's what it comes down to, to me. Which gives the highest level of talent to the Bengals.

(04-10-2021, 06:19 PM)PDub80 Wrote: The Bengals have literally no one to take the top off of a defense and haven't fir years. I see WR as a huge need for the Bengals. Right now, the roster sits at: Higgins, Boyd, Tate, Thomas, Morgan

That is NOT good. Who do you have as the Bengals outside WR threat? Higgins got 2.5 yards separation per catch last year and doesn't have the extra gear to run away from guys. Who is the downfield threat for the Bengals?

(04-11-2021, 12:06 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: We need PITTS, we need a TE that can block, catch and win us games!!! TEs are more useful than WRs.

(04-10-2021, 11:30 PM)BobJohnson55 Wrote: Exactly 

 

(04-11-2021, 12:01 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Mr Mora Jr.,
    Tee Higgins averaged over 15 YPC with Joe last year (over 16 YPC their last 4 games together. The Bengals have a very good outside threat and one that can catch the deep ball. Tee has always been an outside deep threat both in college ans to date in the pros.

It's OK to want ja"Marr, but don't be like mora Jr and say we have no outside threat at WR

(04-10-2021, 11:17 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Chase and Pitts played against better competition than Sewell did.
That speaks volumes.
Yeah Sewell dominated his competition. But Pitts and Chase
Dominated 1st RD talents.

(03-26-2021, 08:29 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Or maybe Joe realizes the entire future of the OL does not hinge on a single draft pick...

I swear, this OL at 5 or bust mentality has gotten out of hand here. There will be plenty of good players available on day 2.

(04-10-2021, 11:08 PM)PDub8 Wrote: So, great, well thought out points.

A few notes:

- Thuney was a 3rd rounder, which should give everyone hope that there ARE, indeed, good players there. Now, can the Bengals find them? Wellllll, they haven't exactly found them ANYWHERE lately.

- Teams play with 5 linemen on the field at all times. So, there will always be a need for those guys as a premium. WRs tend to be 2 at a time, sometimes 3. The Bengals run a lot of 4 & 5 WR "empty" backfield stuff. They need capable WRs 4 or 5 deep, which is a bit unconventional in the NFL.

- Golliday was coming off a down year with some injuries. No one thought this years FA WR group was THAT strong. Everyone waited on the bigger dominos to fall to see what money was left for WR. He still got SUPER paid, however.

- This year's draft has some really talented guys, yes. I just don't think they have nearly as many outside threats as last year. A lot... A LOT... of the WRs are smaller in stature. While Chase is only 6' something, he is 203-210lbs and considered very very strong. I watched a scouting video on him and it showed how he dealt with teams that tried to press him. He chucked a high draft pick (last year's draft) literally off to the sideline after they laid hands on him. He is wildly strong off the jam. So, Chase is unique in this class in that he is at least 6' and 200+ lbs.

The wideout class last year was EXCELLENT. A lot of strong wideouts have been coming out lately. This also played into why the WR market wasn't booming.

And there weren't a ton of O linemen out on the market to be had. Not to mention some major injuries late in the season had teams THIRSTY for line talent. The Bengals being one of them.

- 1st round offensive linemen have the LEAST likely chance to bust. They tend to be very consistent in their talent. This year's draft has O linemen with starter grades all the way into the 3rd round... at least... according to Tobin via the Hear Theat Podcast Growlin show the Athletic puts on.

So, to answer the elite talent question: Penei Sewell is NOT Orlando Pace or the 2nd coming of Andrew Whitworth or even Trent Williams. I think he is built more like a guard than an elite NFL tackle. His physical testing numbers give him an outside shot of being a top OT. There are only a handful who are considered excellent with his dimensions. He was listed at 6'5" 331, which was eye popping... Measured 6'4" with short arms. I think he has just been built into a mythical figure already, which isn't fair to the kid.

So, ultimately, I think the Bengals could STILL get an excellent O lineman in round 2. I'm not so sold on an excellent WR being there. Either way, there are several positions of need on the team. The debate, which should be fun, BTW, is... what's the BEST way to address BOTH?

For example: Would you rather have Option #1 Chase (Pitts)/Leatherwood or Option #2 Sewell/Bateman?

To me, option #1 looks waaaaaaayyyyyyy better. That's what it comes down to, to me. Which gives the highest level of talent to the Bengals.
Whitworth was a 3rd rnd pick too.

(04-11-2021, 01:27 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So Quinn Meinerz and Dillon Radunz should be completely off the draft board by this logic.... yet most people are all about one or the other or both after taking Chase... 

So, competition only matters when it's convenient to the argument? 

Oh.. and this "competition" argument has no weight when the guy that was Sewell's QB played the same "lack of competition" and moved to the NFL with no issue and was the best rookie QB of the season, with a better showing then the rookies from the SEC....

So... next argument?

It's okay to prefer Chase... but this is not a good excuse or argument for being against Sewell at all.

(04-11-2021, 02:43 AM)bengalsboy Wrote: This.They can get a good OT in 2nd rnd.This draft is deep at OT.Take the wr.It is who Joe wants.

(04-10-2021, 10:49 PM)PDub80 Wrote:  The WR separation numbers have nothing to do with Joe Burrow or his deep throws.

(04-11-2021, 10:29 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I guess I'm not seeing the "oline or bust" mentality that some feel is getting out of hand. I've seen many debates on Pitts, Sewell, or Chase. I don't think I've seen much of any "we gotta take Slater, Darrisaw,..." at #5OA. I have seen quite a bit of "Chase or bust because Joe wants him". 

The only thing I've ever heard Joe say directly when asked about Chase is "I wouldn't mind throwing to him". Really not the all all want that Albert Brier "reported" and folks around here have jumped on. 

To be honest, knowing Joe's mentality, I'd be highly surprised if he's going out of his way to stump for anyone at this point in his career. He's always had a "respect must be earned" mentality. I doubt he's trying to be the biggest voice in the room going into his 2nd season. 

(04-11-2021, 12:01 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Mr Mora Jr.,
    Tee Higgins averaged over 15 YPC with Joe last year (over 16 YPC their last 4 games together. The Bengals have a very good outside threat and one that can catch the deep ball. Tee has always been an outside deep threat both in college ans to date in the pros.

It's OK to want ja"Marr, but don't be like mora Jr and say we have no outside threat at WR