(12-12-2016, 04:50 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: This guy is turning into a shut down corner and has thrived this year. Ive been as hard on him as anyone, but man has he played well this year.

We need to give him an extension in the off season. He is improving every year and is about to peak.

(12-15-2016, 04:31 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Like I said before the only stats you can say he was average in is stop rate and yards per play.  Both of them drop to below average when penalties are factored in.When you want to factor penalties in, he was actually below average in every category.

(12-15-2016, 05:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No they do not.  Every CB commits penalties.  And as I have already shown the best CBs usually end up drawing the most penalties.  So there is no proof that when you penalize all cbs for all penalties that he will drop at all in the ratings.


You also keep claiming that 32 is "average".  What makes you say that?  Do you think every CB below #32 is "garbage"?

(12-15-2016, 04:39 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: He has definately shut me up this year. I was a hater on the guy and he has made me eat crow.

All for bringing Kirkpatrick back.

(12-15-2016, 07:12 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I too was someone who was not a fan.

I made a thread last year and most like myself did not feel like Dre was playing up to his expectations.

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Thoughts-on-Dre-K

However I did not fully trash him because he showed some positive signs.

Just the fact that the consensus on the boards these days is to keep him should be telling.

If some poster wants to read several pages of debate or rehash more "cherry picked" stats by Fred...  feel free to peruse.

Been there.  Done that.

(12-16-2016, 01:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Good stuff, yeah he had a bad year last year. He was our weak link in the Secondary.

This year it has been Adam. Dre is still young so i would bring him back for the right price.

I remember that thread, i just don't want to go through 12 pages or so to find what i said back then.

I am sure i agreed with you and the others who thought he was the weak link.

Happy he has turned it around.

(12-16-2016, 03:09 PM)jason Wrote: You probably did. Fred was on an island in supporting Dre. He's been pretty good about not rubbing it in this year.[emoji1]

(12-12-2016, 08:27 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Know myself and Shady were against picking Kirkpatrick and wanting Jenkins instead.

That being said, Dre and Zeitler are both must signs in off season in my book.

(12-16-2016, 03:58 PM)bambino5130 Wrote: I totally agree. You can take a big long look at Fisher and Ogbuehi too see good to average Olineman are not exactly that easy find in the draft and take time to develop. If you thought the Oline looked bad this year, just think what it would look like if Zeitler isnt signed? I know Kevin has had probably his worst year, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt in saying some of those issues might be because there is no consistency next to him at RT. I do think Zietler is a top 5 RG in this league and should be paid like one. Think of the alternative if he is not signed.......... Needing a RT, then a new RG, and really a new Center because Bodine is absolute garbage.......... that situation isnt really a situation you can put a band aid over if all three of those spots are weak to below average. Pittsburgh resigned their RG in DeCastro, we should do the same.

On the other hand resigning Dre is important but I dont think AS import as Zeitler. I think a situation will occur like Joseph and Hall happend awhile back, but this time with Kirkpatrick and Dennard. While they can only keep one of them, at this point I would choose Dre over Dennard.

(12-16-2016, 04:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: We still have Westerman if Zeit leaves who i think will be very good in the NFL.

I am not against re-signing Zeit of course but Jim O alluded to it not being a sure thing.

Westerman could be very good and you are right it has been Zeitler's worst season. He has been bad at times
all on his own, not just cause of the guys on either side of him. Granted they sure as hell didn't help the guy out.

(12-16-2016, 05:02 PM)bambino5130 Wrote: Excellent Point, I totally forgot about him. I would have thought being out of the playoff picture pretty much, would allow them to get some of the younger guys some playing time. Maybe they will actually let Westerman dress for a game this season, but that might be wishful thinking. He is a complete unknown, and my expectations with Bengal late round drafted olinemen arent exactly very high. I mean with Whit having what one year left, maybe two at LT, a serviceable LG with Boling, I am just really nervous about having to essentially replace 3-4 Oline spots in the next year or two when they cant even find a RT solution. I would love to have some kind of idea on future plans for the Oline, but really have none. I would have figured at least one out of Fisher or Ced panning out, but those guys arent exactly flashing talent of anything right now

(12-16-2016, 06:13 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Wtf.  Westerman might be good?  Based on what? What have you guys seen that I haven't.  Do you really want to do this all over again like what we did with Andre Smith.  Because oggieboggie worked out so well.  Pay the man.  Do not risk it again.  He has Bodine n #70 to left n right of him.  Poor guy.  Pay Zeitler

(12-15-2016, 04:31 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: First prove that teams don't use pff individual stats before you make that claim.You have proven nothing.

The point I made was that they pulled him off of brown for his bad play on that drive. I never said anything about him being pulled for the td. Now your just making things up.

If he was giving blanket coverage they would not have targeted second most in the league. They would have gone to hall's guy or picked on one of the linebackers more often. Jones is not the only option to throw the ball to.

If a QB goes through his progression he has slot wideouts and tight ends to throw the ball to. If he saw Kirkpatrick and Jones with blanket coverage he would simply go to the tight ends, slot wideouts or throw the ball away.  

High amount of targets , which might be higher because of pacman jones, still shouldn't be second in the league. Jones probably increased his targets by about 20 . That means if he was giving blanket coverage it would be 70 not 112 .  

Yards per play should be much worse if you include penalties into that. He gave up 118 yards in penalties . Probably more like 300 yards if you count hidden yards in those penalties because when a corner gets a penalty it's an automatic first down. 

This year in new england we had them 3rd and 15 . Kirkpatrick gets holding call 7 yards past line of scrimmage. Automatic first. They drive 70 yards for the score. That's 70 hidden yards.  So yes penalties do factor into yards per play.

If these yards are included then his yards per play jumps to probably 11 yards per play and drops him into the bottom of the league in yards per play.

Stop rate also needs to factor in penalties.  If a guy gets beat he grabs his guy. That means Kirkpatrick should have 15 more times he was beaten added to his stop rate, which would plummet his stop rate to below average.

I'll use a extreme example to illustrate to a novice like yourself. If a guy stop his guy 2 out of 2 times then he has a 100% stop rate according to football outsiders. What if he gets beaten 10 times during the same game, grabs him, and gets 10 penalties. Do you actually think his stop rate should be 100%? If you do stop watching nfl football.  His stop rate is actually 2/12 which is 17%.

So you think corners shouldn't give a crap about run defense. Go tell that to the bengals coaches.

How about his zero interceptions and zero forced fumbles. You think good corners get zero interceptions and zero forced fumbles. Your a joke

Stop rate and success rate have to be very similar stats. That's why  I only used stop rate.  If you give up 2 catches out of 10 you stopped him 80% of the time.

Like I said before the only stats you can say he was average in is stop rate and yards per play.  Both of them drop to below average when penalties are factored in. This means he was actually below average in every category.

(12-14-2016, 10:32 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: PFF is a service used by 19 out of the 32 NFL teams and analyzes every player on every play of every game to aid in game research. So you think 60% of the nfl teams are a joke. You would be the one who is a joke

He ranked 104 out of 112 corners they ranked on PFF.

Most-targeted NFL cornerbacks in coverage last season: 1. Marcus Peters, KC (137) 2. Dre Kirkpatrick, CIN (112) 3. Antwon Blake, PIT (110)

The fact that he was targeted second most last season proves he was letting his guy get open.  
             
2015 CIN CB 75 33 14 7.8 28 44% 34 15% 59.0 17.0 29%

Football outsiders had him ranked 34 in pass coverage, which is below average.

2015 CIN CB 11 3 0 14.0 100 27% 78 27%

Football outsiders had him ranked 100 in run defense which is WAY below average.

You combine his way below ranking on the PFF last season, his below average ranking pass coverage on football outsiders, his way below average run defense on football outsiders,  his ZERO INTERCEPTIONS, as well as one of the league leaders in MISSED TACKLES proves that last season Kirkpatrick was bad by anyone's standard.

(12-14-2016, 11:13 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Stock is rising indicates a start point and finish point. How would anyone know if hes rising this year if we didn't know how he played last year. Whats he rising from? His dogs asshole? Hes rising compared to what he did last season.

(12-16-2016, 06:19 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Just going off of what Jim O said. He said we most likely are not going to re-sign Zeitler.

Would i like to re-sign him? Of course. But i do like Westerman if we don't, he is a versatile strong Guard.

Zeitler also has not played like himself this year even if he had Og and Bodine around him.

How much are you willing to pay Zeitler Socal? As much as DeCastro? Cause that is pry what it will take.

Get a decent O-line coach and i guarantee things will be much better. Get a Free Agent RT and draft a Center early.

(12-16-2016, 06:19 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Just going off of what Jim O said. He said we most likely are not going to re-sign Zeitler.

Would i like to re-sign him? Of course. But i do like Westerman if we don't, he is a versatile strong Guard.

Zeitler also has not played like himself this year even if he had Og and Bodine around him.

How much are you willing to pay Zeitler Socal? As much as DeCastro? Cause that is pry what it will take.

Get a decent O-line coach and i guarantee things will be much better. Get a Free Agent RT and draft a Center early.

(12-16-2016, 03:15 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, at the time people were right to call out Dre. He was the guy Offenses were targeting more than any other.

This year he has improved immensely and has even got a couple picks. Also has improved on the penalties.