Report: Burrow pushing for Bengals to draft Chase

[*ochocincos*]

(04-08-2021, 10:17 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Tobin had a starter grade on Ced and Fisher and Price as well as John Ross and Drew Sample.

I've long since accepted that his talent evaluating needs serious evaluating.

What does "starter" grade mean?

Looking back at the Bengals' picks, they don't usually take guys who start on Week 1 of their rookie year.
They take guys who they think could grow into good players eventually, and as such they usually have a veteran (or two) in front of them.

Ogbuehi and Fisher had Whitworth and Smith in front of them their rookie year, and then Whitworth the following year.

Ross was the WR3/4 when he was drafted. Green, LaFell, and Boyd were ahead of him.

Eifert and Uzomah were ahead of Sample his rookie year.

So none of those guys were expected to start right away, and maybe not even expected to be the starter (at least for Ross and Sample).
But they were expected to be contributors.

One can obviously argue whether they should have gone where they did, but the thing that can't be argued is that the coaches thought all of those guys were worth taking to become eventual significant contributors. They also likely thought they had to take those guys when they did because they wouldn't be available the next time they picked.

[BobJohnson55]

(04-09-2021, 09:32 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Look, philosophically, the O line side of the debate makes sense. In a vaccum, where all things are equal, there's no debating an O lineman at 5.

And, vaccum or not, there's NO QUESTION or debate that the Bengals O line needs another starter... OR 2... for everyone to feel great about it.

HOWEVER....
Diving in deep and analyzing THIS SPECIFIC DRAFT is what switched me from O line to Jamaar Chase with the first pick.

Without a crystal ball, here's the truth on how this really looks...

- The Bengals NEED a #1 outside deep threat to replace 2016 AJ Green. Read that again.... They have needed to fill that spot for 4 seasons. O line or not, the Bengals CANNOT THREATEN DOWN FIELD with this current WR room.

This draft has a deep WR class, but they are not all WR1 guys. Most of them, while very good, are too small for what the Bengals want/need. Other than Marshall, you're looking at a bunch of sub 6' slot guys, or guys well under 200lbs.

Jamaar Chase fits the Bengals PERFECTLY while no one else available in 2, 3, 4 and beyond is really looking good for that WR1 role. Marshall will more than likely NOT be there in the 2nd.

To GUARANTEE you get a supreme talent at the WR1 spot, it's Chase or Pitts in the 1st vs praying at an alter for something to turn out from the later rounds.

As of now, the Bengals WR room looks far worse than the O line room. Since the Bengals run a lot of 4 & 5 wide, right now they would be looking at this: Higgins, Boyd, Thomas, Tate, Morgan .... And that is if none of them get hurt.

^ THAT is not good.

Pitts & Chase are so so so so.... sooooooooo far ahead and better than whatever WRs will be available in rd2 and beyond that it isn't even funny. The Bengals would be getting 50-60% of those guys in rd 2 AT BEST. And, even still, a rd 2/3 WR would probably be a slot guy and the Bengals already have that in Boyd.

This leads me to the O line prospects.....

This O line class is so wildly deep it is amazing. There will be starter grade players at T/G/C available to the Bengals in rds 2 AND 3. It is THAT deep. In contrast to the above, where 50-60% of Pitts or Chase will be there in 2 and beyond, it is projected that a player who is 80% of Sewell will be there in the 2nd.

I cannot ignore the depth of the O line when analyzing who the Bengals should take in the first. I have to look past that to predict the ENTIRE draft as far as what the Bengals choices will be.

Sewell at 5, when compared to what O line talent will be available in rds 2 & 3 looks like an INSANE reach where as Chase or Pitts at 5 look like amazing value when compared to their draftmates.

The OT side of this draft alone is 9.... NINE deep with 1st round talent/starter grade guys... and that's without even touching the true Guards & Centers.

This O line class is so deep, I would be fine if they took Chase followed by the TE from Penn State in the 2nd, and THEN an O lineman in the 3rd. It is THAT deep of a class. BTW, for those thinking only high pick O linemen make it, Joe Thuney was a 3rd rounder. Great O linemen go in the mid rounds all the time, especially in the interior where the Bengals need the most help. Mid round WRs? Ehhhh, not a great track record.

In the 3rd, the C from OK could be there or the C from Alabama. Both can play G just fine, as well. So can Hopkins, who is looking to be back for camp.

Not only that, but cutting Gio has freed up plenty of room to still look at guys cut after June 1st as well as bring in Worford post draft.

Chase or Pitts MAKES SENSE in the first given the makeup of THIS particular draft class.

If you disagree with the above ^, no prob... But I would LOVE to hear your plan on solving the WR1 issue.

I pretty much agree with you on your thinking. That is why I thought chase would be the best option for us at #5. I've said it countless times on here, Aj green was the X receiver and still pulling top corners. Burrow took a lot of coverage sacks to trying to hold it long enough for them to get open. And I'm not so sure Sewell isan elite pass blocker especially at 20 years old untested. 

I guess it could work though if they drafted him,someone would have to move to guard a position none of them really want to do. The rams where zac came from didn't have a true #1 receiver but they also struggled to score in the superbowl and lost. I would hope they took the right receivers in the 2nd or lower that's where I'm skeptical that they would. They probably already have eyes on the 2nd round lineman. 

[Murdock2420]

(04-09-2021, 09:32 AM)PDub80 Wrote: If you disagree with the above ^, no prob... But I would LOVE to hear your plan on solving the WR1 issue.

So I didn't want to quote all but I did want to offer you a counter point.

You say that guys in rough 2 and beyond aren't the big outside WR we need while leaning Chase, who himself is 6'0". So, he is 4 inches shorter then Green already.

Now, when you look back at Pitt a few years ago, there is no doubt their number 1 WR was Antonio Brown at 5'10". Sure he played in the slot but he was without a doubt the most feared WR on their team and for a few seasons, in the league.

The Bengals like to run 4 wide... a lot, I don't know the exact break down, but we saw 4 wide, more then anything last season. I bring that up since in that scenario it doesn't matter if you take a 6'4" or a 5'9" as long as he can play. Tate, and Higgins line up outside in 4 wide, that leaves Boyd in one slot and an open slot on the opposite side. Also, if you go in a bunch formation, there is one outside and two inside and underneath.

I think people are getting too hung up on roles and thinking the X has to be the number 1 guy since that was Green for us. Tyreek Hill is certainly the number 1 in Kansas City and only 5'10", Odell Beckham Jr, 5'11", TY Hilton 5'10, Brandin Cooks 5'10", DeSean Jackson 5'10" there is plenty of guys that are the current number 1 on their team (or where in the last season) that are shorter.

I think we need to worry less about the height and the role and focus more on building the best and most complete roster. If that means Sewell in one and a guy like Elijah Moore in 2, then you go that route. And you run Higgins, Boyd, Moore, Tate across as your 4. 

With all of that being said, I still see the 6 foot guy you want in later rounds easily available. One of Toney, Bateman or Marshall will be there at 38. 

Then there is guys like Armon-Ra St. Brown and Dyami Brown that are certainly there at 38, might be too soon on them in some circles, maybe you get them in 3 maybe you move back in 2 and get another pick to take them. I stand by my belief that when it is all said and done, Dyami Brown will be one of the best WR's out of this class. 

Later rounds to be a developmental traditional X while you let your 2nd round "slot" guy dominate. Tylan Wallace, Cornell Powell (Clemson), Sage Surratt, Marquez Stevenson, Tamorrion Terry, Jhamon Ausbon (who no one is talking about), Tamorrion Terry, Trevon Grimes, Josh Palmer, Nico Collins, Ihmir Smith-Marsette, Seth Williams, etc... this list could continue.

There is just so much talent in this draft at WR. And yes the top 3 are special, but at the OL, the top 2 are special. I love Darrisaw, but even I see him as a step down from Sewell and Slater.

Give me Sewell and Marshall/Toney/Bateman all day over Chase and anyone.


Oh and one more fun name to watch in the draft is Warren Stewart from Colorado State. 6'6" 206 lbs. Talk about a match-up nightmare. If they can coach this kid up, he'd be a pain to deal with.

[Murdock2420]

(04-09-2021, 01:53 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What does "starter" grade mean?

Looking back at the Bengals' picks, they don't usually take guys who start on Week 1 of their rookie year.
They take guys who they think could grow into good players eventually, and as such they usually have a veteran (or two) in front of them.

Ogbuehi and Fisher had Whitworth and Smith in front of them their rookie year, and then Whitworth the following year.

Ross was the WR3/4 when he was drafted. Green, LaFell, and Boyd were ahead of him.

Eifert and Uzomah were ahead of Sample his rookie year.

So none of those guys were expected to start right away, and maybe not even expected to be the starter (at least for Ross and Sample).
But they were expected to be contributors.

One can obviously argue whether they should have gone where they did, but the thing that can't be argued is that the coaches thought all of those guys were worth taking to become eventual significant contributors. They also likely thought they had to take those guys when they did because they wouldn't be available the next time they picked.

It was a reply to someone saying he had starter grades on round 3 OL. 

My point was and still is very simple. Tobin isn't the best at talent evaluation and I really would love to see a true GM come in here and have the power to over-rule bad decisions.

I know all teams whiff on picks, but we had some awful runs prior to the last two years with Taylor and company. (I'm still leery of Jonah Williams since he is looking a lot like Eifert and Lawson, talented but unavailable, but that is more on the medical staff not seeing the injury before we drafted him.)

[BobJohnson55]

(04-09-2021, 02:32 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So I didn't want to quote all but I did want to offer you a counter point.

You say that guys in rough 2 and beyond aren't the big outside WR we need while leaning Chase, who himself is 6'0". So, he is 4 inches shorter then Green already.

Now, when you look back at Pitt a few years ago, there is no doubt their number 1 WR was Antonio Brown at 5'10". Sure he played in the slot but he was without a doubt the most feared WR on their team and for a few seasons, in the league.

The Bengals like to run 4 wide... a lot, I don't know the exact break down, but we saw 4 wide, more then anything last season. I bring that up since in that scenario it doesn't matter if you take a 6'4" or a 5'9" as long as he can play. Tate, and Higgins line up outside in 4 wide, that leaves Boyd in one slot and an open slot on the opposite side. Also, if you go in a bunch formation, there is one outside and two inside and underneath.

I think people are getting too hung up on roles and thinking the X has to be the number 1 guy since that was Green for us. Tyreek Hill is certainly the number 1 in Kansas City and only 5'10", Odell Beckham Jr, 5'11", TY Hilton 5'10, Brandin Cooks 5'10", DeSean Jackson 5'10" there is plenty of guys that are the current number 1 on their team (or where in the last season) that are shorter.

I think we need to worry less about the height and the role and focus more on building the best and most complete roster. If that means Sewell in one and a guy like Elijah Moore in 2, then you go that route. And you run Higgins, Boyd, Moore, Tate across as your 4. 

With all of that being said, I still see the 6 foot guy you want in later rounds easily available. One of Toney, Bateman or Marshall will be there at 38. 

Then there is guys like Armon-Ra St. Brown and Dyami Brown that are certainly there at 38, might be too soon on them in some circles, maybe you get them in 3 maybe you move back in 2 and get another pick to take them. I stand by my belief that when it is all said and done, Dyami Brown will be one of the best WR's out of this class. 

Later rounds to be a developmental traditional X while you let your 2nd round "slot" guy dominate. Tylan Wallace, Cornell Powell (Clemson), Sage Surratt, Marquez Stevenson, Tamorrion Terry, Jhamon Ausbon (who no one is talking about), Tamorrion Terry, Trevon Grimes, Josh Palmer, Nico Collins, Ihmir Smith-Marsette, Seth Williams, etc... this list could continue.

There is just so much talent in this draft at WR. And yes the top 3 are special, but at the OL, the top 2 are special. I love Darrisaw, but even I see him as a step down from Sewell and Slater.

Give me Sewell and Marshall/Toney/Bateman all day over Chase and anyone.


Oh and one more fun name to watch in the draft is Warren Stewart from Colorado State. 6'6" 206 lbs. Talk about a match-up nightmare. If they can coach this kid up, he'd be a pain to deal with.

I think your issue here is you love every receiver you come across. Some of them names are just eww to me. Like Bateman and armon st brown. 

Also there have been shorter receivers,but after the ross pick I'd be very concerned.  I'd rather draft someone 6ft and up for now on. I like dynami brown and Wallace, but would the bengals actually draft either of them. 

[PDub80]

(04-09-2021, 01:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because doing it your way means Burrow will never manage to stay healthy for a season.





This is just complete BS.

If the Bengals can't throw the ball more than 15 yards then how did Higgins finish 18th in receptions of 20+ yards despite missing two games?  How did he finish 12th in yards per catch among all WRs with at least 100 targets last year?

Fred, when you come at me you better come correct. Allow me to help bring you back to reality by stepping up to the chalkboard and teaching you a lesson.....

- By your rationale, Burrow by his very nature will always be sacked and injured? Literally NO ONE can protect Joey B? Or, NO ONE who isn't a top 5 pick can protect Joey B? And, the only way to keep Joey B healthy is to not allow him to throw the ball unless the Bengals use top 5 picks to protect him?

Do you always think or speak in absolutes? I hope not, because that would be stupid.

- The deep ball "BS", as you called it, is 100% REAL SHIT. Not bullshit.

As far as Higgins and the Bengals throwing over 15 yards/deep balls is concerned

Joe Burrow ranked 31st in deep ball completion % in 2020. Deep ball in the NFL is defined as "Passes thrown OVER 20 yards in the air". I said 15. The 5 yards not covered here are inconsequential as my point still stands and is validated by the charts and stats I have linked below regarding Higgins and the other WRs. Burrow also completed exactly 0% of any passes thrown over 30 yards and was a combined 14/56 on passes that traveled 20-30 yards in the air. https://www.google.com/amp/s/brickwallblitz.com/2021/02/16/the-2020-21-deep-ball-project-part-1-3/amp/

Is Joey B bad at the deep ball? Innacurate? NO. Nobody in their right mind would assert that. The line needs to give him TIME, yes. But, the WRs need to give him a WINDOW as well. More on that after you've digested the above data, of which you clearly hadn't done much research on. Feel free to study up before responding again. Although, who am I kidding here? We both know that you won't. But, don't worry, I have much more....

BTW, the above stats were WITH AJ Green. Who takes his place? Morgan? Mike Thomas? Is Tate going deep in 2021?

As far as Higgins is concerned, here are his Nextgen Stats charts per game of every catch he made. This shows the route, where he made the catch (white), and Yac (green).

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/tee-higgins/HIG387791/season

He literally caught only 11 or 12 of his 67 catches past 15 yards from scrimmage.

Oh, and BTW, 2 of the top 20 AFC receivers for YAC for 2020 were Bengals: Gio & Boyd. http://hosted.stats.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=AFC&type=Receiving&rank=231&year=

Next Gen stats also has QB avg separation stats. AJ Green was at 1.7 SEP, which is HORRIFIC. Higgins was at 2.5 (not great) & Boyd 2.7 (not great) NONE of those numbers are even close to the #1 down field guys on most teams in the NFL. Those numbers are poor. Especially Green. He might as well of been walking in 2020.

^ MOST Top end #1 WRs are above 3. Hopkins is 3.1, Diggs 3, Adams 3.2, Lockett 3.4, Renfrow 3.5. Julio Jones is an exception at 2.7.... still blowing away AJ & better than Higgins.

Feel free to check the data out https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/receiving#yards

Literally EVERY metric and piece of data available shows the Bengals WRs got some of the WORST separation on ANY completed ball last year. I would hate to see the incompletion stats. YIKES. this does not help out Burrow at all and shows the Bengals need a #1 monster WR.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(04-09-2021, 02:49 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Literally EVERY metric and piece of data available shows the Bengals WRs got some of the WORST separation on ANY completed ball last year. I would hate to see the incompletion stats. YIKES. this does not help out Burrow at all and shows the Bengals need a #1 monster WR.

1. No it doesn't. By all means, a monster #1 WR would *help* with separation issues, etc., but it isn't the end all, be all; you need guys who can get free, scheme plays and formations/routes to free guys up, coach guys on how to use their hands at the LOS in order to gain that separation, etc. You don't need 1 WR to change that around.
2. The Bengals need multiple areas of help, namely WR, OL and EDGE, while LB also couldn't hurt. Thus, a, "monster #1 WR," would not necessarily be the only choice.

What was that about talking in absolutes?

[PDub80]

(04-09-2021, 03:21 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: 1. No it doesn't. By all means, a monster #1 WR would *help* with separation issues, etc., but it isn't the end all, be all; you need guys who can get free, scheme plays and formations/routes to free guys up, coach guys on how to use their hands at the LOS in order to gain that separation, etc. You don't need 1 WR to change that around.
2. The Bengals need multiple areas of help, namely WR, OL and EDGE, while LB also couldn't hurt. Thus, a, "monster #1 WR," would not necessarily be the only choice.

What was that about talking in absolutes?

What do you mean "No it doesn't "? What statistics or information do you need to see that shows the Bengals need a #1 WR to stretch the field? In 2020 they were 31st in passes of 20 yards or more, last in passes over 30 yards, and they had a WR trio who had the lowest avg rate of separation in the entire league last year. 1 of which left and the only guys behind him to take his place are a UDFA, 7th rounder, and a cast off from another team they resigned to a league minimum. What other information pointing to NEED #1 WR is lacking for you?

And in no way, shape, or form in any of my posts have I said a WR solves any and every issue the Bengals offense or team has. I have pointed to major problems in the WR room and I displayed statistics proving these issues, but that is in line with the thread topic.

In no way, shape, or form have I suggested avoiding OL, LB, or EDGE in this draft. In fact, I have not only acknowledged that in my posts in this thread, but I showed different solutions on how to solve those things when responding to other people's points. One of those solutions didn't involve taking a WR in the 1st round at all, BTW, as I said the QR from MN in the 2nd or 3rd might be viable.

^ So, you'll have to actually show me speaking in absolutes to shove that narrative down my throat. I just, plainly, never said or even eluded to that because, quite frankly, I don't believe there's only 1 way the Bengals can be successful in this draft.

The topic of the thread, however, is "Burrow.... pushing for Chase". So, in keeping with that theme, I have been illustrating points as to why that makes a lot of sense so that people who think it's absurd can climb down from a ledge.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(04-09-2021, 03:50 PM)PDub80 Wrote: ^ So, you'll have to actually show me speaking in absolutes to shove that narrative down my throat. I just, plainly, never said or even eluded to that because, quite frankly, I don't believe there's only 1 way the Bengals can be successful in this draft.

The topic of the thread, however, is "Burrow.... pushing for Chase". So, in keeping with that theme, I have been illustrating points as to why that makes a lot of sense so that people who think it's absurd can climb down from a ledge.

I did; the bold in my last post.

To the bold in this post, I agree, you have done a great job articulating your stance.

[PDub80]

(04-09-2021, 02:32 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So I didn't want to quote all but I did want to offer you a counter point.

You say that guys in rough 2 and beyond aren't the big outside WR we need while leaning Chase, who himself is 6'0". So, he is 4 inches shorter then Green already.

Now, when you look back at Pitt a few years ago, there is no doubt their number 1 WR was Antonio Brown at 5'10". Sure he played in the slot but he was without a doubt the most feared WR on their team and for a few seasons, in the league.

The Bengals like to run 4 wide... a lot, I don't know the exact break down, but we saw 4 wide, more then anything last season. I bring that up since in that scenario it doesn't matter if you take a 6'4" or a 5'9" as long as he can play. Tate, and Higgins line up outside in 4 wide, that leaves Boyd in one slot and an open slot on the opposite side. Also, if you go in a bunch formation, there is one outside and two inside and underneath.

I think people are getting too hung up on roles and thinking the X has to be the number 1 guy since that was Green for us. Tyreek Hill is certainly the number 1 in Kansas City and only 5'10", Odell Beckham Jr, 5'11", TY Hilton 5'10, Brandin Cooks 5'10", DeSean Jackson 5'10" there is plenty of guys that are the current number 1 on their team (or where in the last season) that are shorter.

I think we need to worry less about the height and the role and focus more on building the best and most complete roster. If that means Sewell in one and a guy like Elijah Moore in 2, then you go that route. And you run Higgins, Boyd, Moore, Tate across as your 4. 

With all of that being said, I still see the 6 foot guy you want in later rounds easily available. One of Toney, Bateman or Marshall will be there at 38. 

Then there is guys like Armon-Ra St. Brown and Dyami Brown that are certainly there at 38, might be too soon on them in some circles, maybe you get them in 3 maybe you move back in 2 and get another pick to take them. I stand by my belief that when it is all said and done, Dyami Brown will be one of the best WR's out of this class. 

Later rounds to be a developmental traditional X while you let your 2nd round "slot" guy dominate. Tylan Wallace, Cornell Powell (Clemson), Sage Surratt, Marquez Stevenson, Tamorrion Terry, Jhamon Ausbon (who no one is talking about), Tamorrion Terry, Trevon Grimes, Josh Palmer, Nico Collins, Ihmir Smith-Marsette, Seth Williams, etc... this list could continue.

There is just so much talent in this draft at WR. And yes the top 3 are special, but at the OL, the top 2 are special. I love Darrisaw, but even I see him as a step down from Sewell and Slater.

Give me Sewell and Marshall/Toney/Bateman all day over Chase and anyone.


Oh and one more fun name to watch in the draft is Warren Stewart from Colorado State. 6'6" 206 lbs. Talk about a match-up nightmare. If they can coach this kid up, he'd be a pain to deal with.

Even though (at the moment) we disagree (I see the gap between Chase/Pitts & whatever WRs are there in 2 much greater than the gap between Sewell & the O linemen in 2) I love that you took the time to write that and share your thoughts. You make some great points and gave me some new names to checkout for sure.

With 3 weeks until the draft, I am all about fluidity and the ability to change my mind.

My rebuttal to the note on Chase being 6' is that he has a very big/strong frame for that height (207lbs) where some of the other draftees are really slight of frame. I think guys like that are a wicked handful for NFL DBs because Chase is super physical and beats the jam hard. He reminds me of a bigger, faster, stronger Steve Smith.

I think Bateman is an interesting prospect for sure. If I had to gamble. I would take the outside bet that Mashall goes before Waddle. I think he ran too good to be there in the 2nd, unfortunately.

[fredtoast]

(04-09-2021, 02:49 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - By your rationale, Burrow by his very nature will always be sacked and injured?

Yep.

Just like how by your rationale Mixon will always get injured.

[PDub80]

(04-09-2021, 03:53 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I did; the bold in my last post.

To the bold in this post, I agree, you have done a great job articulating your stance.

Ok, I see what you meant now. What you bolded was meant to be taken in the context of the WR separation being poor and not helping Burrow's deep ball numbers. I don't see how that is speaking in an absolutes beyond the fact that: Will greater WR separation help a QB in deep ball comlletion %? ABSOLUTELY. That is a fact, not an absolute conclusion based illogical reasoning.

Fred's absolute was of the "If not this, then that will be the result" variety. It's illogical. That is different than what I did, which was pointing out the more space a WR has between himself & the defender the easier it is to throw to him.

I mean, we can debate semantics all day, but the idea that IF the Bengals don't take an O Lineman at 5 THEN Joe Burrow will always become injured is an absolute and illogical.

[impactplaya]

Defenses simply don't fear the Bengals deep vertical game.
Their longest pass play last year was a Tyler Boyd catch and.run
For 72 yd TD. Outside of that what was the longest pass play in the AIR?... I think it was a Tee Higgins play vs the Colts.
When you cant stretch.the field defenses just sit down on those
Shallow crossers, slants that they are willing to.give you
And what happens and I saw this alot you have 2 WRs
Ultimately in.the same zip code and Burrow is throwing in the direction of 2 targets but both ate at the 2nd level same side of the field.
No.good.

[fredtoast]

(04-09-2021, 02:49 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Is Joey B bad at the deep ball? Innacurate? NO. Nobody in their right mind would assert that. 

So are you admitting that the guy who wrote the article you linked is not in his right mind?  Here is his direct quote explaining why Burrow ranked THGIRTY-FIRST in throwing the deep ball.   

If you expected Joe Burrow to place higher on this study, boy you must be disappointed.  .  .  There really isn’t an area where Burrow stands out in a positive way in accuracy.  .  .  he’ll need to work on his touch down the field. Many of his passes tend to float, which is why you see 12 pass disruptions in just 37 attempts.

(04-09-2021, 02:49 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Feel free to study up before responding again. Although, who am I kidding here? We both know that you won't. 

This is hilarious considering you apparently did not even read the article you posted.  

[PDub80]

(04-09-2021, 04:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yep.

Just like how by your rationale Mixon will always get injured.

I did not say that. You struggle with literacy. I also didn't say or imply that there is a magical draft position or player that the Bengals must take to guarantee that doesn't happen to Mixon.... Which is what you said regarding Burrow.

You seem to conveniently forget that Palmer got hurt behind an incredible O line, which shows there is a flaw in your conclusion.

(04-09-2021, 04:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So are you admitting that the guy who wrote the article you linked is not in his right mind?  Here is his direct quote explaining why Burrow ranked THGIRTY-FIRST in throwing the deep ball.   

If you expected Joe Burrow to place higher on this study, boy you must be disappointed.  .  .  There really isn’t an area where Burrow stands out in a positive way in accuracy.  .  .  he’ll need to work on his touch down the field. Many of his passes tend to float, which is why you see 12 pass disruptions in just 37 attempts.




This is hilarious considering you apparently did not even read the article you posted.  

I read the article. He was speaking specifically on Joe Burrow's deep passes in his NFL career going by that specific table of data only.

I took that data and started analyzing the WR separation, YAC, routes, etc. BTW, offensive line plays into that as well. It stands to reason that Burrow, with more time, would be much more accurate on deep passes. A lot of factors play into it, INCLUDING Joe Burrow being better.

However, looking at Burrow's entire body if work between the NFL & College, no. No one would say Joe Burrow is an inaccurate passer. Not even on deep throws. You don't complete over 76% of your passes in the SEC, many of which were thrown down field, and NOT be an accurate passer.

I do appreciate that you at least tried to read. Eventually, you'll get there and be able to formulate continuous streams of logical, original thought.

[fredtoast]

(04-09-2021, 02:49 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Next Gen stats also has QB avg separation stats. Higgins was at 2.5 (not great) & Boyd 2.7 (not great) NONE of those numbers are even close to the #1 down field guys on most teams in the NFL. Those numbers are poor. 

Higgins.................  2.5
Boyd....................  2.7

Allen Robinson......  2.3  (102 rec, 1250 yds)
A.J. Brown............  2.4  (70 rec, 1075 yds)
D.J. Moore...........  2.5  (66 rec, 1193 yds)
Amari Cooper.......  2.5  (92 rec, 1114 yds) 
Marvin Jones........  2.5  (76 rec, 978 yds)
DK Metcalf............  2.6  (83 rec, 1303 yds)
Justin Jefferson....  2.6  (88 rec, 1400 yds)
Adam Thielen......  2.7  (74 rec, 925 yds)
Mike Evans..........  2.8  (70 rec, 1006 yds)
Terry McLaurin....  2.8  (87 rec, 1118 yds)
Calvin Ridley........  2.9  (90 rec, 1374 yds)
 

[fredtoast]

(04-09-2021, 05:03 PM)PDub80 Wrote: no. No one would say Joe Burrow is an inaccurate passer. Not even on deep throws. 

Here it is again because you obviously have some problem reading the article you posted about QB accuracy ON DEEP THROWS.  .  .  

There really isn’t an area where Burrow stands out in a positive way in accuracy.  .  .  he’ll need to work on his touch down the field. Many of his passes tend to float, which is why you see 12 pass disruptions in just 37 attempts.

[PDub80]

(04-09-2021, 05:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Higgins.................  2.5
Boyd....................  2.7

Allen Robinson......  2.3  (102 rec, 1250 yds)
A.J. Brown............  2.4  (70 rec, 1075 yds)
D.J. Moore...........  2.5  (66 rec, 1193 yds)
Amari Cooper.......  2.5  (92 rec, 1114 yds) 
Marvin Jones........  2.5  (76 rec, 978 yds)
DK Metcalf............  2.6  (83 rec, 1303 yds)
Justin Jefferson....  2.6  (88 rec, 1400 yds)
Adam Thielen.......  2.7  (74 rec, 925 yds)
Mike Evans..........  2.8 (70 rec, 1006 yds)
Terry McLaurin....  2.8  (87 rec, 1118 yds)
 

Do you really need me to pull up all of the guys 3 & above? You found 10 guys out of 64 starting WRs.

Boyd being the slot WR is one thing. He is a fine player.... Higgins (who I think will be an awesome player and his numbers will improve) being your #1 guy on the outside at 2.5 isn't going to cut it. Which is why I can see a Jamaar Chase or Kyle Pitts making sense.

You're proving the point for me.

[PDub80]

(04-09-2021, 05:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here it is again because you obviously have some problem reading the article you posted about QB accuracy ON DEEP THROWS.  .  .  

There really isn’t an area where Burrow stands out in a positive way in accuracy.  .  .  he’ll need to work on his touch down the field. Many of his passes tend to float, which is why you see 12 pass disruptions in just 37 attempts.

Fred, you love Andy Dalton and are sad Black Jesus is gone. You hate the new guys. We all get it.

The floating of passes is a fair comment. His arm strength was a concern coming out of college since he tended to drop passes into windows instead of thread them in. Tee Higgins & AJ Green weren't getting particularly open down field nor was Joe Burrow getting much time to set and throw or for routes to develop. ALL 3 HAVE TO GET BETTER. No one is saying they all 3 don't.

Here is a scouting report on Joe Burrow's accuracy. Since he was a rookie last year, I feel as though this is still relevant. For the 3rd or 4th time: When looking at his entire body of work, no one evaluating Joe Burrow would call him an innacurate passer of the football.

Accuracy 9.0/10

I love what Joe Burrow does with ball placement and accuracy. He can fit the ball into tight windows where only the receiver can get to it, and he can thread the needle between defenders to give the offensive weapons a chance at a reception. Really good anticipation on throws and timing is near perfect. On deep passes he uses a rainbow arc technique to drop the ball right into the receivers’ hands to make a play. Burrow lives in the short and intermediate passing games where much of his success comes from 10-25 yards. He can laser the ball into tight window locations and get his receivers into the open field. What makes Burrow so unique is his pin-point accuracy from different launching points and throwing motions. He can deliver the ball just as accurately on the run, or off his back foot as he can with a clean pocket and both feet planted.

[Wes Mantooth]

The thread that won't die...