OL hits and sacks - Joe Goodberry

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-14-2021, 01:10 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: It will be a long day and a half after the Chase pick if we go that way.

No doubt, if we take Chase everyone on here will go crazy if we don't add OL at 38...

Regardless of who the pick at 5 is, I think 38 needs to be OL just from a sheer value standpoint if you are looking at who should be available there.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-14-2021, 01:05 PM)RiverRat13 Wrote: I'd feel better about taking Sewell had he turned out to be the consensus unbelievable prospect people made him out to be during the season.  Dane Brugler has Sewell as his OT1, but would rank him as a prospect behind three guys from last year.  If Sewell was a Joe Thomas level prospect, I doubt Miami would have traded out of 3.  And it would be hard to take him at 5 knowing you probably could have traded back to 9 and still gotten him.

On the other hand, if they wait until the second round to take an OL, there's a good chance we are right back here next spring needing a tackle.  If you take Sewell, I'm confident he becomes at minimum a productive right tackle and the draft opens up in 2022.

One thing hurting Sewell's ranking is his shorter arms.
But even without that, I think we see some doubt around Sewell and Chase both because neither played in 2020, but they had dominant 2019 season.
A dominant 2020 would have sealed the deal as being the top prospect at their positions, but a decline from 2019 would have hurt their draft stock.

As for there being a good chance being right back here next spring need an OT if we wait until Rd 2 to take one this year, that's debatable.
There's no certainty on any prospect. The expectation is that the risk of panning out or not increases round by round, but there's always going to be some risk.
Jonah Williams was considered to be the safest OL prospect in the 2019 draft class, but he wasn't necessarily considered to have the highest ceiling.

Some teams draft more for potential and accept higher risk, whereas others draft more safely because they can't afford the gamble or know their coaching staff isn't good enough to take on a big project.

[bengals1969]

(04-14-2021, 01:15 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Regardless of who the pick at 5 is, I think 38 needs to be OL just from a sheer value standpoint if you are looking at who should be available there.

Who is our center?  Hopkins and his late season ACL then Price with his career long inadequacies as a C.
There is second round C talent.  
It is possible the NFL Draft begins at #5 if Atlanta trades out to a QB needy team.  Pitts to me is that pick for the Bengals.  Nothing like a TE with elite TE size and elite WR speed and production.  Toss up to me between Sewall and Chase if Pitts is gone.  I'd love to make the decision for the Bengals, I'd take Sewall because we have talent at WR and little of it on the OL.  I'd still look at a starting C in round 2 if the grades are there at #38.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-14-2021, 01:39 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Who is our center?  Hopkins and his late season ACL then Price with his career long inadequacies as a C.
There is second round C talent.  
It is possible the NFL Draft begins at #5 if Atlanta trades out to a QB needy team.  Pitts to me is that pick for the Bengals.  Nothing like a TE with elite TE size and elite WR speed and production.  Toss up to me between Sewall and Chase if Pitts is gone.  I'd love to make the decision for the Bengals, I'd take Sewall because we have talent at WR and little of it on the OL.  I'd still look at a starting C in round 2 if the grades are there at #38.

To be fair, Price was only really used at C for his rookie year before being moved to G after Hopkins beat him out.
His deficiencies are more prevalent when at G.
I think Price can hold down C until Hopkins returns, but I can understand and accept drafting a C prospect in Rd 2 or even Rd 3 as insurance or replacement.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-14-2021, 01:15 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Regardless of who the pick at 5 is, I think 38 needs to be OL just from a sheer value standpoint if you are looking at who should be available there.

Feeling the same but would be happy with Terrance Marshall at 38 as well if we take Sewell at 5.

Still should be some good OL in the 3rd and 4th rounds and cannot forget about pass rushers either.

Think you would like my Mock I did yesterday TLL.

Started with Sewell and Meinerz, then went pass rushers along with Nico Collins.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-13-2021, 04:30 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: The clip that was on here from twitter with Goodberry saying to count the pressure vs coverage thing. All but 2 snaps, there was 4 guys rushing.

Might have a LB come and a DE drop into coverage... but still was 4 guys coming after Burrow.

For example... watch the first snap. The CB comes on a Blitz... but only 4 guys are actually rushing.



The "blitz" stat can be very misleading.

He may be "blitzed" a lot to confuse him and our terrible line, but there is more often then not... only 4 guys that come.

Yup, it's tough to get separation with that many guys in coverage, no matter how good your receivers are. In fact, damn near impossible. This offensive line has crippled this offense since the end of 2016.

[Earendil]

(04-14-2021, 01:10 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: It will be a long day and a half after the Chase pick if we go that way.

No doubt, if we take Chase everyone on here will go crazy if we don't add OL at 38...

And well they should.  OL needs to be one of the first two picks.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-14-2021, 02:32 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Feeling the same but would be happy with Terrance Marshall at 38 as well if we take Sewell at 5.

Still should be some good OL in the 3rd and 4th rounds and cannot forget about pass rushers either.

Think you would like my Mock I did yesterday TLL.

Started with Sewell and Meinerz, then went pass rushers along with Nico Collins.

I've seen mocks that have him being there when the Bengals pick, but personally I don't think he's going to last to 38. How often does the 4th WR in a draft last until 38? Not to mention that all teams who need a WR knows the Bengals need another and will trade up accordingly if he does slip to 32-37.

I still think by sheer value that 38 needs to be OL, but if it is going to be a pass catcher regardless, I like Freiermuth over any of the 2nd round WRs, if he's there.

I'm honestly of the opinion that you could give Lou Anarumo a completely All-Pro DL and he'd find a way to make it merely good. They've spent the last 2 FA on the DL, neglecting the OL. Worry about pass rushers next year when hopefully Anarumo is gone and the new guy is competent.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-14-2021, 03:18 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I've seen mocks that have him being there when the Bengals pick, but personally I don't think he's going to last to 38. How often does the 4th WR in a draft last until 38? Not to mention that all teams who need a WR knows the Bengals need another and will trade up accordingly if he does slip to 32-37.

I still think by sheer value that 38 needs to be OL, but if it is going to be a pass catcher regardless, I like Freiermuth over any of the 2nd round WRs, if he's there.

I'm honestly of the opinion that you could give Lou Anarumo a completely All-Pro DL and he'd find a way to make it merely good. They've spent the last 2 FA on the DL, neglecting the OL. Worry about pass rushers next year when hopefully Anarumo is gone and the new guy is competent.

Yeah, I doubt Marshall lasts that long too. Just saying if he did, I would be happy with picking him or your guy Freiermuth
after we got Sewell and then go dipping back into the OL pool in the 3rd or 4th. Lou has been terrible but you also have to 
take into account the injuries, especially at DT last season, we were decimated there with backups at best playing.

Maybe if we can stay healthy, get the O-line shored up so we can protect Burrow and open holes in the running game just
not having to be on the field so much will really help the Defense.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-14-2021, 03:40 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, I doubt Marshall lasts that long too. Just saying if he did, I would be happy with picking him or your guy Freiermuth
after we got Sewell and then go dipping back into the OL pool in the 3rd or 4th. Lou has been terrible but you also have to 
take into account the injuries, especially at DT last season, we were decimated there with backups at best playing.

Maybe if we can stay healthy, get the O-line shored up so we can protect Burrow and open holes in the running game just
not having to be on the field so much will really help the Defense.

Sure, but also...

Carlos Dunlap
Carl Lawson
Sam Hubbard

...combined for 8.5 sacks in a total of 36 games worth of playing. I'm not saying that's an all-world DE group there or anything, but if that's all Lou can get out of a reasonably talented DE group that only missed 3 total games for health reasons, then adding more pass rushers isn't going to help much.

Even when healthy, DJ Reader wasn't tearing it up either. If you care at all about PFF, he had his worst grade under Lou since his rookie year. If you don't care about PFF, he had only 0.0 sacks, 1 TFL, and 1 QB hit in 5 games. Even if you say that none of those stats are his job, the Bengals allowed 792 rushing yards in the 5 games he was active for. That's 158.4 rushing yards per game, which would have been the 30th worst rushing defense in the NFL (compared to the 29th the finished the season at).

Throwing even more FA $ and draft capital at Lou's defense is a pointless endeavor because he won't get results with it. I also worry that the more the Bengals do to make it "Lou's guys", the more will have to be undone when someone actually competent comes in. 3 years of "rebuilding" to Lou's defense and then another 2 rebuilding to an actual NFL-level defense seems scarily close to reality.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-14-2021, 04:18 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Sure, but also...

Carlos Dunlap
Carl Lawson
Sam Hubbard

...combined for 8.5 sacks in a total of 36 games worth of playing. I'm not saying that's an all-world DE group there or anything, but if that's all Lou can get out of a reasonably talented DE group that only missed 3 total games for health reasons, then adding more pass rushers isn't going to help much.

Even when healthy, DJ Reader wasn't tearing it up either. If you care at all about PFF, he had his worst grade under Lou since his rookie year. If you don't care about PFF, he had only 0.0 sacks, 1 TFL, and 1 QB hit in 5 games. Even if you say that none of those stats are his job, the Bengals allowed 792 rushing yards in the 5 games he was active for. That's 158.4 rushing yards per game, which would have been the 30th worst rushing defense in the NFL (compared to the 29th the finished the season at).

Throwing even more FA $ and draft capital at Lou's defense is a pointless endeavor because he won't get results with it. I also worry that the more the Bengals do to make it "Lou's guys", the more will have to be undone when someone actually competent comes in. 3 years of "rebuilding" to Lou's defense and then another 2 rebuilding to an actual NFL-level defense seems scarily close to reality.

All points taken, that is beyond terrible. Thought Lou should of been fired this Offseason, too bad he is still here. 

Stupid by the FO keeping this guy around.

[lone bengal]

(04-14-2021, 04:18 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Sure, but also...

Carlos Dunlap
Carl Lawson
Sam Hubbard

...combined for 8.5 sacks in a total of 36 games worth of playing. I'm not saying that's an all-world DE group there or anything, but if that's all Lou can get out of a reasonably talented DE group that only missed 3 total games for health reasons, then adding more pass rushers isn't going to help much.

Even when healthy, DJ Reader wasn't tearing it up either. If you care at all about PFF, he had his worst grade under Lou since his rookie year. If you don't care about PFF, he had only 0.0 sacks, 1 TFL, and 1 QB hit in 5 games. Even if you say that none of those stats are his job, the Bengals allowed 792 rushing yards in the 5 games he was active for. That's 158.4 rushing yards per game, which would have been the 30th worst rushing defense in the NFL (compared to the 29th the finished the season at).

Throwing even more FA $ and draft capital at Lou's defense is a pointless endeavor because he won't get results with it. I also worry that the more the Bengals do to make it "Lou's guys", the more will have to be undone when someone actually competent comes in. 3 years of "rebuilding" to Lou's defense and then another 2 rebuilding to an actual NFL-level defense seems scarily close to reality.

Agree , good points even when healthy his defense didn’t look good. I get Wayne’s got hurt but in addition to having the guys you mentioned in those early games the secondary was mostly intact with Bates, Bell , Jackson and Alexander plus they wanted to keep and pay Williams all that money to be a third safety and not really use him. The other issue with this coaching staff is they have no proven track record. Taylor was a QB coach and Lou was a secondary coach. I keep hearing we’re brining in guys that fit Lou’s system and I have no idea what his system is and if it even works because he’s never ran a Defense before. Versus brining in coaches with experience I could say oh he ran this defense in this place and that worked or remember those games were Zac Taylor had a great day calling plays with the Rams as an OC. The plan didn’t make senses to me either we have an offensive minded head coach coach with a young QB and the last two off-seasons we’ve spent big on a defense that I still don’t think will be very good.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(04-13-2021, 05:50 PM)bengals67 Wrote: Watching the games last year and reviewing these stats, two questions:


1. How in the world do they pass on Sewell? ( Or the northwestern kid if for some reason good scouting shows him to be better)

2. Why haven't they spent more money on o-line free agents? That is truly mystifying to me.

Fixing the line to help establish a running game and better protect Burrow has to be the top priority of this draft

It is going to take at least two more drafts and two good free agent seasons for this team to be a true contender.

Right now, they must address the o line before anything else.

1. If you look at the issues on the O-line the problem wasn't so much T as G. Taking a G at 5 seems high whilst T at 5 doesn't solve your interior problems. Maybe you can move Sewell inside but have him learn a new position after a year off doesn't sound that ideal when the QB is coming back from injury. Slater has been slated as G for many but he's been playing outside - at least he was before he opted out as well so would need to adjust positionally too as well as lose the rust. The sweet spot for drafting interior linemen is usually the second and maybe even third round. There seem to be plenty of guys who should be in and around there. If Sewell is BPA take him, but the Bengals shouldn't be drafting for need in the first round when they have an opportunity to draft a difference maker.

2. What free agents? Moton and Scherff were tagged and never hit free agency. Even a guy like Cam Robinson got tagged. I'd have liked Darryl Williams as well but he was re-signed before hitting the open market. That basically left Trent Williams and Joe Thuney and I don't necessarily blame them for passing at those prices. After those guys was there anyone there who was a long term option? I wouldn't have minded Feiler but he'd have been a stop gap like Reiff. Zeitler would have been nice but again wasn't the long term option. I'd have probably tried to sign a few guys who could compete for a spot but basically the Bengals decided they were going to draft a lineman and at that stage they could get a better one in the second or third round then they would in free agency.

(04-14-2021, 01:15 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Regardless of who the pick at 5 is, I think 38 needs to be OL just from a sheer value standpoint if you are looking at who should be available there.

Looking at who should be available isn't the way to find value.

Value is where the player shouldn't have still been available.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-15-2021, 09:28 AM)lone bengal Wrote: Agree , good points even when healthy his defense didn’t look good. I get Wayne’s got hurt but in addition to having the guys you mentioned in those early games the secondary was mostly intact with Bates, Bell , Jackson and Alexander plus they wanted to keep and pay Williams all that money to be a third safety and not really use him. The other issue with this coaching staff is they have no proven track record. Taylor was a QB coach and Lou was a secondary coach. I keep hearing we’re brining in guys that fit Lou’s system and I have no idea what his system is and if it even works because he’s never ran a Defense before. Versus brining in coaches  with experience I could say oh he ran this defense in this place and that worked or remember those games were Zac Taylor had a great day calling plays with the Rams as an OC. The plan didn’t make senses to me either we have an offensive minded head coach coach with a young QB and the last two off-seasons we’ve spent big on a defense that I still don’t think will be very good.

I think bringing in Louie Cioffi was a good move. If Lou's D continues to struggle even when healthy, fire him and let Cioffi 
take over the duties who has a much more impressive resume'.

[BurnsBengal]

(04-14-2021, 01:10 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: It will be a long day and a half after the Chase pick if we go that way.

No doubt, if we take Chase everyone on here will go crazy if we don't add OL at 38...

  That said, I will not be surprised in the least if they actually go DE/DL if someone they like drops, regardless of who they took at 5.

If its Chase...I will be stressed with picks Rd. 2 and 3.  Doesn't mean its not the right pick by any means, but it will make it a more stressful draft as we watch OL peel off the board.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-13-2021, 02:47 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Then we are already muchly improved. Hope we don't have to watch Jordan start again, as Synric said, he just cannot
get low and the low man wins. Bringing in Reiff and bringing back Spain were great moves. Hopkins I hope comes back
100% cause he is a very good pass blocker. Draft Sewell or another OL in the first couple rounds and things will start to
turn around in both the running game and protecting Burrow.

Add in the fact that Turner is gone (thank God) and replaced by a guy that took a pretty average crop of talent and made them a pretty damn good offensive line, and you will have a different team this season.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-15-2021, 02:16 PM)BurnsBengal Wrote:   That said, I will not be surprised in the least if they actually go DE/DL if someone they like drops, regardless of who they took at 5.

If its Chase...I will be stressed with picks Rd. 2 and 3.  Doesn't mean its not the right pick by any means, but it will make it a more stressful draft as we watch OL peel off the board.

Feel the same, in the end you have to look at the Draft as a whole once it is all said and done. There are lots of quality OL to 
be had all the way to the 5th round this year. I want them to go OL early though and like you said it will be more stressful then
I would like if they waited till say the 3rd or 4th to grab one. Even though there might be guys like Spencer Brown in the 4th 
who would be perfect to learn behind Reiff for a year or two.

Thing is, we need interior O-lineman the most. If we go with an OT I would like one that can play Guard as well. That is what
is so nice about guys like Sewell, Slater, Eichenberg, Carman is they are versatile. Very likely anyone of these guys would start
out at Guard for us if Reiff and Jonah are playing well and healthy.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-15-2021, 02:27 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Add in the fact that Turner is gone (thank God) and replaced by a guy that took a pretty average crop of talent and made them a pretty damn good offensive line, and you will have a different team this season.  

Pollack is definitely a reason for optimism over Turner for damn sure. Plus he can pick his guys that fit his system. I don't know
what the hell system Turner was running. It was no good and he couldn't get anything out of MJ at all and couldn't teach him to
play low. Hopefully Willie and Pollack help out all our guys big time and we Draft a couple talented guys relatively early.

You ought to check out my first Mock in the Mock Draft forum SHRacer. It starts with Sewell but the next one I am going with 
Chase to begin as it seems he might be the pick. Happy with either of course just need to fix the OL after Chase.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(04-13-2021, 12:37 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Joe Goodberry posted the following information regarding what each OL allowed in terms of hits and sacks on their QB.

The Bengals OL was charged with 23 sacks last season (PFF)

17 of those sacks are from guys not on the roster or depth players.

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) April 13, 2021

I can't post his other tweets because he uses the F word in there, so I'll just post the metrics and you can access his twitter for the actual posts.

Williams - 6 hits, 3 sacks
Su'a Filo + Spain - 5 hits, 2 sacks
Hopkins - 1 hit, 1 sack
Reiff - 7 hits, 1 sack

Other guys from last year:
Jordan - 15 hits, 3 sacks (led all guards in QB hits allowed)
Hart - 8 hits, 4 sacks
Redmond - 2 hits, 3 sacks
Johnson - 5 hits, 2 sacks
Adeniji - 2 hits, 4 sacks

As others have noted:

1) Only listing hits/sacks and not hurries/pressures paints an incomplete picture.

2) Snaps are needed for context. The Redmond, Adeniji, Johnson numbers are worse in that light. As are Jonah's conpared to Hart.

Also:

1) Where is Price?

Price, Jordan, plus Johnson/Adeniji are all one snap away from being a starter. That is unacceptable. We need a new signing at T, G, and C before the season starts. Redmond, Adeniji, Johnson, Jordan, and Price are Practice Squad level guys. Maybe Pollack can fix a couple. But they are projects, not players. I don't want projects playing. We need 8 players. We have 5.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-15-2021, 06:35 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: As others have noted:

1) Only listing hits/sacks and not hurries/pressures paints an incomplete picture.

2) Snaps are needed for context. The Redmond, Adeniji, Johnson numbers are worse in that light. As are Jonah's conpared to Hart.

Also:

1) Where is Price?

Price, Jordan, plus Johnson/Adeniji are all one snap away from being a starter. That is unacceptable. We need a new signing at T, G, and C before the season starts. Redmond, Adeniji, Johnson, Jordan, and Price are Practice Squad level guys. Maybe Pollack can fix a couple. But they are projects, not players. I don't want projects playing. We need 8 players. We have 5.

It doesn't paint an incomplete picture, it's saying a different message.
In a pressure/hurry, Burrow isn't physically getting hit.
With a sack or hit, he is.
You're far more likely to get injured from a hit or sack vs a pressure/hurry.
I say "far more likely" because you could possibly hurt yourself trying to avoid the hit.

As for pass block snap counts, here they are, in order from most to least:
Hopkins - 600
Reiff - 567
Hart - 552
Jordan - 499
Spain - 437
Williams - 429
Johnson - 293
Redmond - 278
Su'a-Filo - 155
Adeniji - 150
Price - 138 (1 sack, not sure on hits)

If you extrapolate the data on a per-pass block snap basis (highest in bold):
Hopkins - 0.00167 hit per snap, same for sack per snap
Reiff - 0.012 hit per snap, 0.00176 sack per snap
Williams - 0.0139 hit per snap, 0.00699 sack per snap
Hart - 0.0145 hit per snap, 0.00725 sack per snap
XSF+Spain (combined 592 pass block snaps) - 0.00844 hit per snap, 0.00337 sack per snap
Jordan - 0.03006 hit per snap, 0.00601 sack per snap
Johnson - 0.01706 hit per snap, 0.006825 sack per snap
Redmond - 0.00719 hit per snap, 0.01079 sack per snap
Adeniji - 0.01333 hit per snap, 0.02667 sack per snap
Price - 0.00725 sack per snap (same as Hart)

So from those calculations, Jordan was the worst when it came to hits (duh), and Adeniji was actually the worst when it came to sacks.
Note that Hart was worse than Williams for both hits and sacks, and Price had the same sack-per-snap as Hart.
Hopkins was the best pass protector when it came to defenders touching the QB.