Joey B talks to Collinsworth

[tms]

(04-22-2021, 07:24 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: He's not, and they've made some bad decisions all on their own for years.

It's not like Burrow picked Zac frickin' Taylor to be his HC... or those losers they hired to even run the offense for Dalton at the end of his tenure.

Heck I'd personally be inclined to listen to this "kid" over some of the shitshow decisions our current think tank have made in the recent past.

If Burrow really is "BFF" with the perceived #1 WR in the upcoming draft is it such a bad thing?

You can't get a better endorsement than from a fine young man in Burrow who knows Chase's character, work ethic, and lastly shares chemistry too.

He might not be thinking about all those things you stated but with Chase he really truly is the known over the unknown prospect.

There's also never been a more textbook case of potential bias. I see that as another variable for which they all need to control. 

Especially considering Burrow's position today, coming off a nasty knee, exhausting rehab, and a rookie year that did not go according to plan. You want to make sure that he's vouching for his friend's football capacities rather than addressing how traumatized he may feel, and how desperate he is to re-connect with his positive associations of the year prior. That's all part of the equation too imo.

I've said it before but I'd at least want Burrow to consult with Peyton, Brady, Rodgers and guys of that ilk before he makes an endorsement one way or the other. You don't want him to be taking a position out of naivete and ignorance. If those guys tell him, "Bro, you have a long future ahed of you and are gonna have a lot of teammates as a pro! College nostalgia is a dangerous basis on which to make your choices."

The Collinsworth interview and the story about Brandon Graham and Fletcher Cox warning Joe during the Philly game that he shouldn't be taking so many hits, and Joe replying that in a few years he'll "get those calls"; combined with how he's been promoting his scar this week like a medieval warrior; that all raises a red flag for me. It's one thing to be tough and lead by example, but he shouldn't think that he needs to be Rocky Balboa for this team lol. You want to make sure that that's not his approach to the job.

And after accounting for all those factors and consulting with all those mentors, if he still wants to take Ja'Marr Chase ahead of bolstering the OL with the best lineman in college- God bless the kid, man. It's his team. He deserves a chance to build it in his own image. 

You just don't want him looking back on this crossroads 20 years after the fact, "Man, what was I thinking..." 

[Shake n Blake]

(04-22-2021, 06:17 PM)TJ528 Wrote: so one thing I noticed about Pollack is when he came to Cincy in 17 their final ranking in rushing yards per game was 31st and in 2018 was 21st. Ironically, 2019 the Jets were 31st and on 2020 were 22nd....

I couldn't tell you the last time we had a good run game with exception of 2014.

I do agree that PA should've been canned a long time ago but again there is the loyalty to a coaching staff shown by Mike Brown.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

I don't judge the effectiveness of the run game on total yardage. At all.

You can run 600 times and lead the league in yardage, but average 3.2 yards/carry and constantly be setting your offense up for 3rd and long.

Efficiency is where it's at brother. We didn't run MUCH Pollack, but we ran WELL when we did.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-22-2021, 07:24 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: He's not, and they've made some bad decisions all on their own for years.

It's not like Burrow picked Zac frickin' Taylor to be his HC... or those losers they hired to even run the offense for Dalton at the end of his tenure.

Heck I'd personally be inclined to listen to this "kid" over some of the shitshow decisions our current think tank have made in the recent past.

If Burrow really is "BFF" with the perceived #1 WR in the upcoming draft is it such a bad thing?

You can't get a better endorsement than from a fine young man in Burrow who knows Chase's character, work ethic, and lastly shares chemistry too.

He might not be thinking about all those things you stated but with Chase he really truly is the known over the unknown prospect.

But he also could - clearly - be biased. C'mon man. What young QB comes in and just starts making decisions? That kinda power is reserved for the Tom Brady's of the world, and (a) they have to earn that say so and (b) even those guys it's arguable now much power they've wielded.

How long did we hear about Brady and Rodgers wanting their teams to bring in weapons. It was a big reason why Brady left New England and a big bone of contention for Rodgers and Russell Wilson as well.

All champions.

Yet here we are saying kid Burrow with 2 NFL wins should get the keys to the GM office?

Regardless of how you feel about Tobin (I think he should've been fired by now), he knows more than some kid that plays QB fresh outta college. This is next level silliness. All to justify taking the WR at 5.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't think Burrow's opinion is relevant anyway. The brass might ask him about Chase for obvious reasons, but he's not going to say anything other than great, glowing things for his former national championship teammate. If Burrow were like "oh hell naw, Ja'Marr Chase is a freaking bum" then maybe that'd raise their eyebrows, but otherwise it's just a guy that likes a prospect already branded at the top of his class. Nothing changes on that basis.

[BengalsRocker]

(04-22-2021, 08:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: But he also could - clearly - be biased. C'mon man. What young QB comes in and just starts making decisions dude? That kinda power is reserved for the Tom Brady's of the world, and (a) they have to earn that say so and (b) even those guys it's arguable now much power they've wielded.

How long did we hear about Brady and Rodgers wanting their teams to bring in weapons. It was a big reason why Brady left New England and a big bone of contention for Rodgers and Russell Wilson as well.

All champions.

Yet here we are saying kid Burrow with 2 NFL wins should get the keys to the GM office?

Regardless of how you feel about Tobin (I think he should've been fired by now), he knows more than some kid that plays QB fresh outta college. This is next level silliness.

It would only be solely biased if there wasn't a need and he wasn't the #1 perceived WR in the draft.

It's not like Chase is a reach by any means.  If they were totally reaching?   Then yes.  It would be silly.

They need to hit several positions at starter quality in this draft for offense.

So what, if they lean towards one of value and also have inside info about from their starting QB?

It's obvious they hold Burrow in high respect even though he's only had 2 NFL wins.

Apparently they respect the hell out of Zac Taylor and what has he done to earn it himself?  Now that is next level silliness!

[Sled21]

(04-22-2021, 01:27 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: What is the likelihood, Sled? Be bonest.

And even if he has considered all those things and done research, it's not his job or forte to evaluate the roster and make decisions that impact the roster long term. Do you really want your 24 year old QB making such decisions over your 60 year old GM?


Marv was a good coach. We just kept him around 10 years too long.

The book is still out on Zac, but the first chapter read like the script to Dude, Where's my Car?

Those are two separate issues Shake. I think the likelihood that Burrow has thought about every one of those issues, moreso even than any fan, is extremely likely since the guy lives, eats and breaths football.... not to mention the fact it is HIS health and career on the line. Because he came up with a different take on the situation than someone else does not mean he just hasn't thought any of it through. My guess is that is ALL he is thinking about. Now whether or not a QB should be making the decision is a separate issue. No, I don't think he should make the decision. But if you ask if I think the Mgt. should listen and take into consideration his thoughts and concerns when making their decision... then I say absolutely.

[Sled21]

(04-22-2021, 03:43 PM)Wyche Wrote: They didn't do much of anything in year 1 under Taylor. Years 2 and 3 have seen some action. But seriously, the worst oline in the NFL, Marvin had Willie, Levi, Steiny, Rich, and Bobbie. Look at this shit we've trotted out there the last 3 or 4 seasons. Marvin was losing with em too. 2015 draft killed this team due to their own inaction rectifying it.

Let's not forget Marvin also lost with Whit, Andre and Zeitler.

[fredtoast]

(04-23-2021, 08:36 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Let's not forget Marvin also lost with Whit, Andre and Zeitler.

Marvin had a career winning record with all those guys.

You guys can hype Zac's potential all you want.  I want him to win also.  But trying to compare him to Marvin is a waste of time.  Nothing Zac has ever done is even close to what Marvin accomplished.

[Sled21]

(04-22-2021, 06:56 PM)PDub80 Wrote: The question is, do I have a problem with what Mike Thomas did? NO. I actually do NOT. After the Dolphins hit Boyd with cheap shots out of bounds and the refs didn't call it and threw Boyd out.... Mike Thomas let the Dolphins know what the deal would be. GOOD.

I wish the Bengals would have done the same thing when Rivers had his jaw broken for no reason.... and Huber for that matter.

Derned right!

[TJ528]

(04-23-2021, 08:36 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Let's not forget Marvin also lost with Whit, Andre and Zeitler.

yea but Marvin didnt lose quite as bad as Zac has in his first 2 seasons.  

First thing Marvin did when he was hired in Cincinnati was improve the OL and bring in Bobby Williams and draft Steinbach and he improved the DL and DB's.   Marvin took a team from 2-14 in 2002 to 8-8 in 2003, and that was with a scrub for a QB in Kitna.  

First thing Zac did when he was hired in 2019 with Duke's help was sign Eiffert to a wasted contract, Preston Brown who was "supposed" to come in and help at LB, John Miller to help the OL (did he even last the 2019 season?) , BW Webb, Tupou (has he played here yet?),  Bobby Hart. 

It's amazing they spent so much money in free agency the last 2 years considering how badly they failed in the 2019 free agency.  

Until Zac's record is above .500 or he's made the playoffs he's not even close to as good as Marvin and i'll be the first one to tell you Marvin's time was done in the Nati' but i respect the hell outta the guy for bringing this franchise into the 21st century.  

[Sled21]

(04-23-2021, 08:53 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin had a career winning record with all those guys.

You guys can hype Zac's potential all you want.  I want him to win also.  But trying to compare him to Marvin is a waste of time.  Nothing Zac has ever done is even close to what Marvin accomplished.

Playoff wins seems to be the measuring point around here. How many more playoff wins does Marvin have in his 16 years that Zac has in his 2? Look, I'm not bashing Marvin, I like Marvin, but I don't want to go back to Marvin and have a winning career record with no success. I'd rather struggle for a couple of years then soar into a Super Bowl. Will that be with Taylor, it is yet to be seen, but I do not miss mediocrity in the least. This is Taylor's year to sink or swim.

[TJ528]

(04-23-2021, 09:26 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Playoff wins seems to be the measuring point around here. How many more playoff wins does Marvin have in his 16 years that Zac has in his 2? Look, I'm not bashing Marvin, I like Marvin, but I don't want to go back to Marvin and have a winning career record with no success. I'd rather struggle for a couple of years then soar into a Super Bowl. Will that be with Taylor, it is yet to be seen, but I do not miss mediocrity in the least. This is Taylor's year to sink or swim.

Here's my issue with it Sled is you have people and I'm all for giving Zac a chance this year, and if he doesnt win he's gone.  However, you have others who will say the guy needs 5 years.  It was a complete rebuild when he was hired.  

In the NFL you dont need 5 years to build a team to win.  Most GM's and coaches can do that in 2 years.  So to say a coach needs 4 or 5 years to get his roster where he needs it to win is BS.  

If Zac fails this year and I could careless if its because of injuries, or maybe Burrow comes back and he doesnt hit his stride until the last 4 games of the season and this team goes 5-12 because they won 3 of 4 games.  He still needs to go!

[fredtoast]

(04-23-2021, 09:40 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Here's my issue with it Sled is you have people and I'm all for giving Zac a chance this year, and if he doesnt win he's gone.  However, you have others who will say the guy needs 5 years.  It was a complete rebuild when he was hired.  

In the NFL you dont need 5 years to build a team to win.  Most GM's and coaches can do that in 2 years.  So to say a coach needs 4 or 5 years to get his roster where he needs it to win is BS.  

If Zac fails this year and I could careless if its because of injuries, or maybe Burrow comes back and he doesnt hit his stride until the last 4 games of the season and this team goes 5-12 because they won 3 of 4 games.  He still needs to go!

Here is the thing.  I would never fire a new head coach after just one year.  That would not be fair to anyone.

I also would not fire a new head coach after his second year just because he has not become a playoff contender AS LONG AS HE IS SHOWING IMPROVEMENT AND PROGRESS.


The loss of Boling, Glenn, Green, and first round pick Jonah Williams before the season even started destroyed any hope we had for a decent offense in Zac's first season.  But in 2020 we added the first overall pick from the 2020 draft, the first O-lineman taken in the 2019 draft, one of the best rookie WRs in the league, plus $145 million in free agent spending and we still just won 4 games.

Our coaches botched the benching of Andy Dalton and ran off one of the better DEs in the league from a defense that is desperate for talent.  They wasted an active roster spot for an entire season on Green.  Our best young defensive player (Bates) said there were communication problems with the defensive coaches in 2019.  Multiple other defensive players (Williams, Phillips) publicly questioned the coaching staff on social media.

The roster Zac inherited was not strong, but it was not near as bad as some people claim.  Atkins and Green were obviously on the decline, but according to PFF Andy Dalton had the best season of his career in 2018, and Dunlap has consistently produced at a high level except for the first half of 2020 when he had conflict with our inexperienced coaching staff.  There was some good young talent in Mixon, Boyd, Bates, Hubbard, Jackson, and Lawson.  Again, I am not saying it was a strong roster, but it was not a complete disaster.

When teams hire good coaches they may not make the playoffs in the second season (although some have) but they at least show major improvement by the second year.  We have not seen that with Taylor and his staff.

[TJ528]

(04-23-2021, 10:24 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is the thing.  I would never fire a new head coach after just one year.  That would not be fair to anyone.

I also would not fire a new head coach after his second year just because he has not become a playoff contender AS LONG AS HE IS SHOWING IMPROVEMENT AND PROGRESS.


The loss of Boling, Glenn, Green, and first round pick Jonah Williams before the season even started destroyed any hope we had for a decent offense in Zac's first season.  But in 2020 we added the first overall pick from the 2020 draft, the first O-lineman taken in the 2019 draft, one of the best rookie WRs in the league, plus $145 million in free agent spending and we still just won 4 games.

Our coaches botched the benching of Andy Dalton and ran off one of the better DEs in the league from a defense that is desperate for talent.  They wasted an active roster spot for an entire season on Green.  Our best young defensive player (Bates) said there were communication problems with the defensive coaches in 2019.  Multiple other defensive players (Williams, Phillips) publicly questioned the coaching staff on social media.

The roster Zac inherited was not strong, but it was not near as bad as some people claim.  Atkins and Green were obviously on the decline, but according to PFF Andy Dalton had the best season of his career in 2018, and Dunlap has consistently produced at a high level except for the first half of 2020 when he had conflict with our inexperienced coaching staff.  There was some good young talent in Mixon, Boyd, Bates, Hubbard, Jackson, and Lawson.  Again, I am not saying it was a strong roster, but it was not a complete disaster.

When teams hire good coaches they may not make the playoffs in the second season (although some have) but they at least show major improvement by the second year.  We have not seen that with Taylor and his staff.

I mean according to a post on here if we would've had John Kitna in 2018 we probably would've made the playoffs because they were basically the same player...  

[fredtoast]

(04-23-2021, 10:37 AM)TJ528 Wrote: I mean according to a post on here if we would've had John Kitna in 2018 we probably would've made the playoffs because they were basically the same player...  

It is closer than you think
______________________     _KITNA     DALTON
Seasons top ten in pass yds....... 4 ..........  1
Seasons top ten in tds............... 3 ..........  3
Seasons top ten in pass rating... 1 ..........  1

[PDub80]

(04-23-2021, 10:37 AM)TJ528 Wrote: I mean according to a post on here if we would've had John Kitna in 2018 we probably would've made the playoffs because they were basically the same player...  

I'll stand by that. The biggest difference that helped Andy is that he had way way way better talent around him for most of his career. They were similar players all the way down to the way they both randomly fumbled in a playoff game for the Bengals without anyone even touching them. Dalton did it in the regular season, too. Similar arm strength. The exact same size (6-2/220). Similar completion %. John Kitna didn't get a prime #1 WR, either. He had a banged up Joey Galloway in 1999 for 8 games. Galloway only started 4. I just finished looking up stats between the two players. Dalton had supremely more talented, prime teams to work with and has a QB Rating of 87.5 compared to Kitna's 77.4.

Hell, they were both backups for the Cowboys and BOTH went 4-5 the first year with Dallas. And both were super nice guys.

I don't see much difference at all. Dalton's shortcomings were helped by the roster around him, Kitna's were not. It's really quite simple to see they are the same player.

[Murdock2420]

(04-23-2021, 11:26 AM)PDub80 Wrote: I'll stand by that. The biggest difference that helped Andy is that he had way way way better talent around him for most of his career. They were similar players all the way down to the way they both randomly fumbled in a playoff game for the Bengals without anyone even touching them. Dalton did it in the regular season, too. Similar arm strength. The exact same size (6-2/220). Similar completion %. John Kitna didn't get a prime #1 WR, either. He had a banged up Joey Galloway in 1999 for 8 games. Galloway only started 4. I just finished looking up stats between the two players. Dalton had supremely more talented, prime teams to work with and has a QB Rating of 87.5 compared to Kitna's 77.4.

Hell, they were both backups for the Cowboys and BOTH went 4-5 the first year with Dallas. And both were super nice guys.

I don't see much difference at all. Dalton's shortcomings were helped by the roster around him, Kitna's were not. It's really quite simple to see they are the same player.

Didn't Kitna hold his own pretty well in the playoff game that Palmer got his knee shredded on the first play?

Also, I would say I think Kitna had a higher football IQ then Dalton. If Kitna had the talent of a guy like Palmer, he'd have had an amazing career with his ability to figure out defenses.

[fredtoast]

(04-23-2021, 11:26 AM)PDub80 Wrote: both randomly fumbled in a playoff game for the Bengals without anyone even touching them. Dalton did it in the regular season, too.

During the regular season ball security was one of Dalton's strength.  His fumble rate was one of the lowest in the league among starting QBs.

[fredtoast]

(04-23-2021, 11:26 AM)PDub80 Wrote:  Dalton had supremely more talented, prime teams to work with and has a QB Rating of 87.5 compared to Kitna's 77.4.

You need to tell that to the guys who are claiming that the '03 roster was "loaded with young talent" while the 2018-2019 teams were total garbage. 

[TJ528]

(04-23-2021, 11:40 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You need to tell that to the guys who are claiming that the '03 roster was "loaded with talent" while the 2018 one was "one of the worst ever".

Well i mean if you listen to a lot people on here Zac walked into the worst roster in football.  

I mean I'd think walking into a roster that was 2-14 the year previous was worse.