Perhaps Mike Brown isn't so Semi-Retired?

[AtomicBlaze]

(05-03-2021, 09:07 PM)PDub80 Wrote: They spent 2nd, 4th, & 6th round on O linemen. WTF else do they need to do to prove it's a priority?

 It obviously wasn't a priority because rather than go after a guy they wanted in the second round they traded back and picked whatever was left after other teams left us the scraps.  He was what was left over after teams who scout and draft better than the Bengals had their choice of players we could have drafted.  Sure maybe overall it made us a better team adding extra picks to improve the defense but were risking the franchise by not giving Burrow a good offensive line.  If Burrow goes down again with injury the team is done season over and the rest of the draft will not matter.  That is why I don't care who else we drafted because the OL is not fixed, we did not draft any premier players for the OL.

[Bilbo Saggins]

(05-03-2021, 09:07 PM)PDub80 Wrote: They spent 2nd, 4th, & 6th round on O linemen. WTF else do they need to do to prove it's a priority?

Back surgery, major project, multiple knee surgeries...I won't pretend to be any sort of a medical expert. I hope that these guys all stay healthy and can play competent NFL level ball. It just seems like a precarious way of going about things. 

Is there a single "pencil in from day 1 obvious starter" out of this bunch? Hopefully the medical staff knows what they're doing and these guys are ready to go. I have no idea what the success rates are for guys coming back from this stuff 100%. What I do know is that if Carmen or Williams don't contribute much this year, I don't want to hear any whining about "injuries to key positions." If the line isn't healthy and you have a couple of the worst starting OL playing for this team, that'll be totally self inflicted at this point. 

[Shake n Blake]

(05-02-2021, 10:01 PM)J24 Wrote: The Hate on Paul Alexander on here is very strange.

The guy is one of the most respected Offensive Line minds in football and he had a hand in drafting some great players here 2 of them who are HOF caliber players in Anderson and Whitworth.

Also maybe Brown wanted to get some inside info on Carmen specifically because he knew that's who Duke was targeting.

Last we heard from PA, he was pounding the table for the likes of Ogbuehi, Fisher and Bodine. So I don't think it's strange at all that people aren't wanting him having any input on who we select.

Not to mention he oversaw a run game that ranked better than 20th in yards/carry only one time after 2000.

[Bengal Dude]

(05-04-2021, 12:00 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Last we heard from PA, he was pounding the table for the likes of Ogbuehi, Fisher and Bodine. So I don't think it's strange at all that people aren't wanting him having any input on who we select.

Not to mention he oversaw a run game that ranked better than 20th in yards/carry only one time after 2000.

 A lot of the local guys, even Hobs, has mentioned that Ogbuehi and Fisher not working out was pretty much the nail in Alexander's coffin here. Remember the Westerman press conference in 2016? Paul was asked about him being competition for Bodine and he went off about the witch hunt against Bodine. You could tell PA was cracking at that point. 

[Shake n Blake]

(05-04-2021, 01:29 AM)Bengal Dude Wrote:  A lot of the local guys, even Hobs, has mentioned that Ogbuehi and Fisher not working out was pretty much the nail in Alexander's coffin here. Remember the Westerman press conference in 2016? Paul was asked about him being competition for Bodine and he went off about the witch hunt against Bodine. You could tell PA was cracking at that point. 

He did help find some good players years ago, but clearly the game passed him by...and I was never a fan because I felt his run blocking schemes held us back from ever being a dominant running team. Which is important in this division.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-03-2021, 09:07 PM)PDub80 Wrote: They spent 2nd, 4th, & 6th round on O linemen. WTF else do they need to do to prove it's a priority?

They had 10 picks. Of the first half of their draft, they spent 1 on OL and 3 of them on DL. It's literally impossible to call that a "priority".

(05-04-2021, 01:53 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: He did help find some good players years ago, but clearly the game passed him by...and I was never a fan because I felt his run blocking schemes held us back from ever being a dominant running team. Which is important in this division.

Yeah, the Bengals were never really a good running team under PA, even before the game passed him by. They had years here and there, and Corey Dillon helped them be good for a few years, but it was generally pretty pathetic. 
(Seasons where they were Top-12 in both are bolded. )

'94: 22nd Yards/8th YPC
'95: 26th Yards/13th YPC
'96: 13th Yards/16th YPC
*Corey Dillon Drafted*
'97: 9th Yards/8th YPC
'98: 21st Yards/15th YPC
'99: 7th Yards/3rd YPC
'00: 2nd Yards/5th YPC
'01: 20th Yards/22nd YPC
'02: 21st Yards/20th YPC
'03: 12th Yards/13th YPC
*Corey Dillon Leaves*
'04: 15th Yards/14th YPC
'05: 10th Yards/10th YPC
'06: 26th Yards/28th YPC
'07: 24th Yards/29th YPC
'08: 29th Yards/30th YPC
'09: 9th Yards/24th YPC (Bengals used 2 big TEs, a FB, and a 6th OL.)
'10: 27th Yards/32nd YPC
'11: 19th Yards/28th YPC
'12: 18th Yards/20th YPC
'13: 18th Yards/28th YPC
'14: 6th Yards/12th YPC
'15: 13th Yards/23rd YPC
'16: 13th Yards/21st YPC
'17: 31st Yards/30th YPC

The Bengals only had 5 playoff-caliber (hence top-12) rushing offenses in 24 years of Paul Alexander, and 3 of them came in Corey Dillon's first 4 years in the NFL, way back before 9/11 to give timeframe reference. He became assistant HC for '03, and in the 15 years of that, they only did it 2 times.

[OSUfan]

Paul Alexander was generally pretty good at evaluating talent he just was not good at continuing to develop that talent. You were as good as you were getting when you came to the Bengals under Alexander unless you were willing to develop yourself which I believe was the case with guys like Whit and Anderson. In some cases players regressed under Alexander like Zeitler.

[OSUfan]

(05-03-2021, 10:26 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote:  It obviously wasn't a priority because rather than go after a guy they wanted in the second round they traded back and picked whatever was left after other teams left us the scraps.  He was what was left over after teams who scout and draft better than the Bengals had their choice of players we could have drafted.  Sure maybe overall it made us a better team adding extra picks to improve the defense but were risking the franchise by not giving Burrow a good offensive line.  If Burrow goes down again with injury the team is done season over and the rest of the draft will not matter.  That is why I don't care who else we drafted because the OL is not fixed, we did not draft any premier players for the OL.

Here we will just re-post since you ignored it the first time while regurgitating the same narrative. Maybe you will actually attempt to refute it this time.

"No really there is not. How do you figure they did not make the O line a priority? I guess the answer must be because they did not use their first round selection on an O lineman?

Couple of questions for you. Prior to the draft who was the consensus #1 caliber WR for the Bengals? In this draft how many consensus #1 caliber WRs were there? 

I would certainly call 2nd round a priority. Not to mention, the firing of Turner and the return of one of the best O line coaches in the game Frank Pollack as O line coach as well as the run game coordinator. The best move that could have been made for this line....period! I might suggest that you evaluate the individual rankings of the existing Bengals O linemen under Pollack and under Turner. So the O line is not a priority? The cutting of Bobby Hart and the addition of Riley Reiff as the RT....serious upgrade. But Oh yeah the O line was not a priority.

I would suggest maybe watching some tape on the players drafted and a little less time griping about them. Jackson Carman is a very good O lineman with a lot of experience. While he may not be LT material at the NFL level but I do not doubt at all that he will be a long time quality starter at either OG or RT. He is a very athletic mountain. Phenomenal in the screen game. Gets to the second level easily and acquires the next target and engages immediately.

D'Ante Smith has the qualities that are looked for at OT that cannot be coached. He has the length, feet, and athleticism to be really good. He will need to add some bulk but has shown some strength even at 297. He is a kid that could truly excel under the tutelage of Frank Pollack. This kid has tremendous upside.

Trey Hill is yet another very experienced lineman on the interior that has a lot of football experience against high caliber competition. He could provide immediate depth at any of the interior line positions at a level that far exceeds that of last season.

The line was a priority of this offseason and was addressed as such. "

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(05-03-2021, 04:48 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What concerned me a bit was Pollack saying in an interview that he did not attend Clemson's Pro Day, so he did not see Carman in person.

With that said, it's not like Mike Brown made this decision in the a vacuum.
He sought the opinions of a longtime OL coach (Paul Alexander) and arguably his second-best OL player in franchise history (Willie Anderson) on Carman, who both worked with Carman.

Pollack also said he spoke to him loads on zoom. The coaches feed in but ultimately it is Tobin who makes the picks.

(05-03-2021, 05:46 PM)TheBengalsMind Wrote: I completely agree. He was definitely our pick.

I also believe, though I can't confirm with any certainty. That if we had got Kenny Golladay, Penei Sewell would of been the pick.

The only glaring flaw at all for Joe Burrow, last year, was the deep ball. He could never seem to get in a rhythm with anybody going deep. 

Now it was probably 65% offensive lineman and 35% our WR's not having the ability to get consistent separation on deep routes. Move the percentage as you all see fit.

But it seems the Bengals brass wanted to fix both. So, I feel Chase and Carman were plan B. I feel Chase is better than Golladay. Hopefully time proves them right on Carman.

I don't think the Bengals were seriously in on Golladay and they were just happy to be used as leverage.

[AtomicBlaze]

(05-04-2021, 08:34 AM)OSUfan Wrote: Here we will just re-post since you ignored it the first time while regurgitating the same narrative. Maybe you will actually attempt to refute it this time.

"No really there is not. How do you figure they did not make the O line a priority? I guess the answer must be because they did not use their first round selection on an O lineman?

Couple of questions for you. Prior to the draft who was the consensus #1 caliber WR for the Bengals? In this draft how many consensus #1 caliber WRs were there? 

I would certainly call 2nd round a priority. Not to mention, the firing of Turner and the return of one of the best O line coaches in the game Frank Pollack as O line coach as well as the run game coordinator. The best move that could have been made for this line....period! I might suggest that you evaluate the individual rankings of the existing Bengals O linemen under Pollack and under Turner. So the O line is not a priority? The cutting of Bobby Hart and the addition of Riley Reiff as the RT....serious upgrade. But Oh yeah the O line was not a priority.

I would suggest maybe watching some tape on the players drafted and a little less time griping about them. Jackson Carman is a very good O lineman with a lot of experience. While he may not be LT material at the NFL level but I do not doubt at all that he will be a long time quality starter at either OG or RT. He is a very athletic mountain. Phenomenal in the screen game. Gets to the second level easily and acquires the next target and engages immediately.

D'Ante Smith has the qualities that are looked for at OT that cannot be coached. He has the length, feet, and athleticism to be really good. He will need to add some bulk but has shown some strength even at 297. He is a kid that could truly excel under the tutelage of Frank Pollack. This kid has tremendous upside.

Trey Hill is yet another very experienced lineman on the interior that has a lot of football experience against high caliber competition. He could provide immediate depth at any of the interior line positions at a level that far exceeds that of last season.

The line was a priority of this offseason and was addressed as such. "

 I still don't think the OL is very good.  Personally I would have used the top 2 picks on OL.  I would have used the 3rd and 4th to trade back up into the 1st to grab a second premium OL that fell.  Then I would feel confident we upgraded the OL.  I would have tried to find a speedy receiver in the 5th-7th. By improving the OL we improve both the running game and passing game and we keep the QB healthy. We also can sustain long drives to help control time of possession so it also helps the defense. Also the future of our OL seems dismal, our best player is on a 1 year contract. And our LT of the future can't stay healthy. The future of this team is shit because we didn't fix the problem this year. Also if you have read any of my posts I think it was ridiculous to use a 2nd round pick OL with a history of back injuries. I am pretty pissed off about what they did to Burrow last year and I am even more upset this year because they are going to let it happen again after he is returning from injury.

[J24]

(05-04-2021, 12:00 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Last we heard from PA, he was pounding the table for the likes of Ogbuehi, Fisher and Bodine. So I don't think it's strange at all that people aren't wanting him having any input on who we select.

Not to mention he oversaw a run game that ranked better than 20th in yards/carry only one time after 2000.

Like I said He was a key part in drafting Two HOF caliber players in Whitworth and Anderson. He is also one of the more respected guys in the offensive line community and helped out a lot of offensive lineman in this year's draft. 

Was it time for him to go in 2018? Yeah probably past time but still the guy did a lot of good for this franchise.

[OSUfan]

(05-04-2021, 10:59 AM)AtomicBlaze Wrote:  I still don't think the OL is very good.  Personally I would have used the top 2 picks on OL.  I would have used the 3rd and 4th to trade back up into the 1st to grab a second premium OL that fell.  Then I would feel confident we upgraded the OL.  I would have tried to find a speedy receiver in the 5th-7th.  By improving the OL we improve both the running game and passing game and we keep the QB healthy.  We also can sustain long drives to help control time of possession so it also helps the defense.  Also the future of our OL seems dismal, our best player is on a 1 year contract.  And our LT of the future can't stay healthy.  The future of this team is shit because we didn't fix the problem this year.  Also if you have read any of my posts I think it was ridiculous to use a 2nd round pick OL with a history of back injuries.  I am pretty pissed off about what they did to Burrow last year and I am even more upset this year because they are going to let it happen again after he is returning from injury.

This is why I am glad that they are not using your plan to build the team! So by your theory teams build their lines through "premium" prospects which according to your post must mean only first round selections. Well, your theory could not be any further from the truth. Actually, having first round prospects at both OG positions is extremely rare and actually when looking at the top 10 offensive lines in 2020 there were only 8 first round OGs out of the 20 players. Only one team in the top 10 had two first round OGs, the Saints, and they did not make the playoffs.

Under your theory not having a number one receiver is a path to success. You want a speedy WR? Maybe we should bring Ross back is he not fast? Or wait speedy by your terminology.

You are correct improving the O line helps sustain drives and improves both the running and the passing game. Which is why it is a good thing we worked to improve the O line. The future of the O line is not dismal at all unless you do not have the ability to look objectively at it.

Jackson Carman is going to be a tremendous upgrade at one of the OG spots. As well, contrary to your sensationalizing, he does not have a "history" of injury...unless of course you consider a single injury a "history". 

Jonah Williams is an outstanding LT and unfortunately no team has a crystal ball going into a season to know if players will get injured. However, if he does get injured we have a nice option in Riley Reiff to slide to LT.

D'Ante Smith I believe will end up being the steal of this draft. He already has shown a really good foundation to build upon and will add bulk and strength in an NFL weight program.

Trey Hopkins is a really good center and should be ready to go before the season opens.

Spain has actually graded out very well over his career....except under Jim Turner.

Now as has already been addressed is that science does not agree at all with your dramatization of the procedure that Carman had and it is a common procedure amongst professional athletes across virtually all sports today.

[AtomicBlaze]

(05-04-2021, 12:18 PM)OSUfan Wrote: This is why I am glad that they are not using your plan to build the team! So by your theory teams build their lines through "premium" prospects which according to your post must mean only first round selections. Well, your theory could not be any further from the truth. Actually, having first round prospects at both OG positions is extremely rare and actually when looking at the top 10 offensive lines in 2020 there were only 8 first round OGs out of the 20 players. Only one team in the top 10 had two first round OGs, the Saints, and they did not make the playoffs.

Under your theory not having a number one receiver is a path to success. You want a speedy WR? Maybe we should bring Ross back is he not fast? Or wait speedy by your terminology.

You are correct improving the O line helps sustain drives and improves both the running and the passing game. Which is why it is a good thing we worked to improve the O line. The future of the O line is not dismal at all unless you do not have the ability to look objectively at it.

Jackson Carman is going to be a tremendous upgrade at one of the OG spots. As well, contrary to your sensationalizing, he does not have a "history" of injury...unless of course you consider a single injury a "history". 

Jonah Williams is an outstanding LT and unfortunately no team has a crystal ball going into a season to know if players will get injured. However, if he does get injured we have a nice option in Riley Reiff to slide to LT.

D'Ante Smith I believe will end up being the steal of this draft. He already has shown a really good foundation to build upon and will add bulk and strength in an NFL weight program.

Trey Hopkins is a really good center and should be ready to go before the season opens.

Spain has actually graded out very well over his career....except under Jim Turner.

Now as has already been addressed is that science does not agree at all with your dramatization of the procedure that Carman had and it is a common procedure amongst professional athletes across virtually all sports today.

Ok get back to me after the season we will see who was right.

[Benton]

(05-04-2021, 05:40 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: They had 10 picks. Of the first half of their draft, they spent 1 on OL and 3 of them on DL. It's literally impossible to call that a "priority".


Yeah, the Bengals were never really a good running team under PA, even before the game passed him by. They had years here and there, and Corey Dillon helped them be good for a few years, but it was generally pretty pathetic. 
(Seasons where they were Top-12 in both are bolded. )

'94: 22nd Yards/8th YPC
'95: 26th Yards/13th YPC
'96: 13th Yards/16th YPC
*Corey Dillon Drafted*
'97: 9th Yards/8th YPC
'98: 21st Yards/15th YPC
'99: 7th Yards/3rd YPC
'00: 2nd Yards/5th YPC
'01: 20th Yards/22nd YPC
'02: 21st Yards/20th YPC
'03: 12th Yards/13th YPC
*Corey Dillon Leaves*
'04: 15th Yards/14th YPC
'05: 10th Yards/10th YPC
'06: 26th Yards/28th YPC
'07: 24th Yards/29th YPC
'08: 29th Yards/30th YPC
'09: 9th Yards/24th YPC (Bengals used 2 big TEs, a FB, and a 6th OL.)
'10: 27th Yards/32nd YPC
'11: 19th Yards/28th YPC
'12: 18th Yards/20th YPC
'13: 18th Yards/28th YPC
'14: 6th Yards/12th YPC
'15: 13th Yards/23rd YPC
'16: 13th Yards/21st YPC
'17: 31st Yards/30th YPC

The Bengals only had 5 playoff-caliber (hence top-12) rushing offenses in 24 years of Paul Alexander, and 3 of them came in Corey Dillon's first 4 years in the NFL, way back before 9/11 to give timeframe reference. He became assistant HC for '03, and in the 15 years of that, they only did it 2 times.

I always assumed that was more of a mike brown thing. I think Mike wants those passing attacks, not so much a ground pound.

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-04-2021, 01:29 AM)Bengal Dude Wrote:  A lot of the local guys, even Hobs, has mentioned that Ogbuehi and Fisher not working out was pretty much the nail in Alexander's coffin here. Remember the Westerman press conference in 2016? Paul was asked about him being competition for Bodine and he went off about the witch hunt against Bodine. You could tell PA was cracking at that point. 

Yep

I also remember an interview PA did about Ogbuehi when they finally benched him after like 12 games. The entire rest of the free world knew by like game 3 Ogbuehi just wasn't an NFL level LT but it took them 12 games.

Anyways PA made a statement like "I told him (Ogbuehi) we're trying to win games here and we need better play at LT" LOL You just now figure that out PA ?

[ezekiel23]

As long as Mike Brown is breathing,he’ll always be involved,don’t let anyone tell you different.It’s just his nature,he can’t help himself.Offensive line has historically been a weekness with him,and gives the impression that he never really looked at it as a priority.We’ve all witnessed in the past,Alexander drooling over a guy,and they even traded up to get him,and he was a bust.I hope Carman makes a good guard though.Could be a future pro bowler for all we know.At least he’ll have one of the best coaches in the league coaching him.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-04-2021, 08:28 AM)OSUfan Wrote: Paul Alexander was generally pretty good at evaluating talent he just was not good at continuing to develop that talent. You were as good as you were getting when you came to the Bengals under Alexander unless you were willing to develop yourself which I believe was the case with guys like Whit and Anderson. In some cases players regressed under Alexander like Zeitler.

I've seen similar behavior from some people that I've worked with.
You have some people who actively try to learn more to become better in their careers voluntarily and will proactively seek out that education in various ways.
Yet there are others where you have to provide all the training for them and provide them the free capacity to do it if you want them to improve.

You always want those who will voluntarily put in the effort themselves because they care about their personal development, and you can ask questions in an interview to get an idea of how motivated they are and what approach they take, but you never fully know until you see them in the job.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-04-2021, 01:01 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep

I also remember an interview PA did about Ogbuehi when they finally benched him after like 12 games. The entire rest of the free world knew by like game 3 Ogbuehi just wasn't an NFL level LT but it took them 12 games.

Anyways PA made a statement like "I told him (Ogbuehi) we're trying to win games here and we need better play at LT" LOL You just now figure that out PA ?

If you are the person bringing someone into the team/company, you typically give that person a longer leash. You have more faith that they will succeed, and thus give them more time and opportunity before moving on. Because if it doesn't work out, it looks bad on you too for bringing them in.

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-04-2021, 01:23 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If you are the person bringing someone into the team/company, you typically give that person a longer leash. You have more faith that they will succeed, and thus give them more time and opportunity before moving on. Because if it doesn't work out, it looks bad on you too for bringing them in.

Exactly, I get it

But you also have to be able to set your ego aside and do what's best for the team.

[muskiesfan]

I guess I don't understand why people can't have different opinions. I think Carman was a reach. That doesn't mean I don't want him to play well. That doesn't mean I don't hope he stays healthy. That doesn't mean I'm hating on him. Not sure why that has to be argued. I can have that opinion. I still hope he is successful and plays well.

I agree that the OL doesn't seem like it was quite the priority of the DL. Yes, we signed Reiff, Spain, and drafted 3 OL. We still have major depth concerns along the OL.

Just looking at the starters, can Williams stay healthy? So far you have to expect him to miss games. He's played what, 10 out of 32 so far. Spain/XSF are both superior to Jordan. Will Hopkins be ready day 1? If not, does that mean it's Price? I'm hoping Hill gets a shot if Hopkins isn't ready to go, but he's a question also. Not doubting his ability, but we won't know what we have until he suits up. Same thing with Carman. Not saying he doesn't have talent, just don't know what we have in him yet. Reiff is an upgrade over Hart but is aging and on 1 year deal. I understand we can re-sign him but I still don't think he's the future at RT.

For our current back ups, Adeniji looks good but needs to make strides. Johnson isn't good. Jordan shouldn't be in the NFL. Price isn't good. Prince is a question mark. Played 2 games for Miami, got waived, was inactive the rest of 2019 and opted out of 2020. Sutherland is going into his 4th year and has played 5 games at OT. Then our newest draft pick Smith is going to take time. Obviously it is not gospel, but the popular opinion is that it's going to take 1-2 seasons before he becomes a contributor.

I'm a big fan of Pollack and think the OL should be better with him as coach, but if Hopkins isn't ready and Williams misses time again, the OL is going to suffer. Potentially Hill steps in and does well making up for Hopkins, but a Williams injury will hurt even more. Our depth is still very poor. There will still be June 1st cuts and other cuts as it gets closer to the season. I doubt this is our final OL. There is A LOT of room for improvement in the depth.