Burrow has been amazing, but...

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-04-2021, 05:02 PM)J24 Wrote: Honestly I think  the reason why the numbers are exploding has more to do with offensive philosophy then the rules itself. Teams were not running spread offenses in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s now it is common place.

Also QBs are a lot more skilled today than they were previously. I mean let's look at Kyler Murray for example the dude has the running skills of Barry Sanders but the arm of Jay Cutler. Dudes are just on another level right now.

You forget the run n shoot?

It wasn't common because of the rules in coverage and hits on the QB at the time.

Agreed that the athletes have vastly improved though.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-04-2021, 06:12 PM)Bryan Wrote: Ken Anderson held that record for 27 years before Brees broke it

You're right. I should've googled before posting.

Montana and Young broke the record for passer rating and both hit over 70% (which was rare back then), but neither quite broke Ken's % record.

[J24]

(10-04-2021, 05:08 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We've always had guys like that in the league.

Mike Vick ran a 4.3 and could throw 70 yards from his knees.

Randall Cunningham. Steve Young. Donavan McNabb. Steve McNair.

None or these guys were completing 75% with a 120 rating though, and tbh, these physical traits don't directly link to being super efficient anyway. Most of the best QBs in league history were actually very unathletic. Tom Brady was such a guy at 25 years old. Here he is at 44 and dominating with his slow self.

True but those guys had to adopt to the NFL while the NFL and Coaches are adopting to the mobile QB now.

I'm not saying that rules do not play a factor but teams are definitely playing at a faster pace and spreading out more often.  Teams were not running a shot gun offense 60% of the time, teams were not running 3 wide sets 70% of the time, and teams were not running the read option.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-04-2021, 06:21 PM)J24 Wrote: True but those guys had to adopt to the NFL while the NFL and Coaches are adopting to the mobile QB now.

I'm not saying that rules do not play a factor but teams are definitely playing at a faster pace and spreading out more often.  Teams were not running a shot gun offense 60% of the time, teams were not running 3 wide sets 70% of the time, and teams were not running the read option.

Fair enough, but I'd say teams are spreading it out more because the rule changes have made defenses unable to punish you for doing so. Basically I think we're both correct. And yeah, I do think teams are better able to utilize athletes at the QB position, partially due to the rule changes as well, but also because knowledge just builds over time.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I was curious exactly how Joe stacked up, so through four games...

3rd in completion percentage
2nd in on-target throw percentage (PFR)
3rd in yards per pass attempt
8th in air yards per attempt
9th in completed air yards per attempt
6th in passer rating
5th in touchdown passes

despite having the 8th-highest pressure rate

(minimum 70 attempts)

[*Awful Llama*]

(10-04-2021, 06:17 PM)Wyche Wrote: You forget the run n shoot?

It wasn't common because of the rules in coverage and hits on the QB at the time.

Agreed that the athletes have vastly improved though.

The Lions ran a version of that with OC/"Innovator" Mouse Davis that they called the "Silver Stretch." We just used to call it the run-and-shoot-yourself-in-the-foot offense. I don't know, maybe having Rodney Peete as QB wasn't the best idea....

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-04-2021, 05:00 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not asking for 1980s type of defensive play, but the game starts to feel a bit cheap when fantastic offensive output is so common. Everyone is playing like the 99 Rams now.


They want to lure in Gen Z with tons of offense. That's why they're allowing zany celebrations now, too. I guess I'm just an old head that misses old style football. All sports are falling victim to this mentality, so the NFL is not alone. The NBA has changed a ton as well, and all rule changes over the last 20 years have favored offense.

I'm really old school haha. And I understand we're never going back to the 1977 style of play. Hell we're not even going back to 1997. However I'd love it if there was some way to tweak the rules or somein to bring the O back down out of the stratosphere. 

I don't enjoy a 6-3 game very much but on the flip side 850 yards passing with 12 TD's between the two teams gets ? Hard to watch as well. I mean it's like why is the D even on the field ?

I don't have the answer but I hope we can get back to good old 27-21 type games.

[BengalChris]

We also saw Brees retire with the record passing yards only to have it broken 4 games into the next season.

The rules keep changing, as others have mentioned, to make scoring easier and defensing that scoring more difficult.

This isn't anything new though. In the 1930s 1324 yards was the record set in 1939 (Davey O'Brien). In 40s it was 2,938 (Sammy Baugh). In the 50s it was 2,899 (Johnny Unitas) - Damn I'm old I remember watching Unitas play. In the 60s it was 3,747 (Sonny Jurgensen). In the 70s it was 4,082 (Fouts). In the 80s it was 5,084 (Marino). In the 90s it was 4,690 (Warren Moon) and the first decade where it dropped. The 2000s was 5,069 (Drew Brees). The 10s it was 5,477 (Payton Manning).

Marino's 1984 record of 5,084 lasted until Drew Brees broke it in 2011 with 5,476 and that was promptly broken two years later by Payton Manning.

[motoarch]

16 223 388 57.5 3,572 9.2 28 14 86 30 0 97.4

57.5 completion

28td 14 interceptions

97.4 passer rating

What would you say about the stat line above, was it a great season or just above average, or was it even average?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Depends entirely upon when it happened.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

https://youtu.be/M8-xItnwlnQ

Click to watch on YouTube.

[GreenCornBengal]

In addition to the rule changes, I think the coaching philosophy has changed a bit. Instead of the Marvin Lewis, Bill Cowhers, Jeff Fisher and Mike Holmgrens of the world we have these younger coaches who would rather be in a shootout than hold on to a small lead. Coaches used to play field position, focus on the run game and build a strong defense. Rule changes have definitely changed the way these newer coaches are finding success. Andy Reid has always had that mindset so it works for him lol.

[Housh]

If Burrow wasn’t accurate and we didn’t have 4 great WR I’d discredit this but i can’t

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-05-2021, 04:14 AM)Housh Wrote: If Burrow wasn’t accurate and we didn’t have 4 great WR I’d discredit this but i can’t

Calling Auden Tate “great” is a bit of a stretch.

[motoarch]

(10-04-2021, 08:40 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: Depends entirely upon when it happened.

Boomer esiaons MPV winning season in 1988

[Brownshoe]

20th in yards
T-4th in INTs
29th in attempts

FWIW I don't blame the above stats on Burrow. I feel like they're more about poor coaching. The INTs were a bit unlucky too since 3/4 came from 3 consecutive passes lol. Burrow is a beast and I wish I could see him under a coach that would let him loose a bit more.

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-04-2021, 04:35 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Can we take a second to talk about how ridiculous passing has become?

Burrow is completing a whopping 72.9% of his throws. I know Steve Young held the record for like 20 years at 70.3% before Drew Brees broke it. Now we have 7 QBs at 70% or better, and Burrow is only 3rd.

Kyler Murray is completing 76.1%...which would be a good free throw percentage in the NBA.

Burrow is also averaging 9.2 yards/attempt, which is also incredible, and would easily lead the league most years I've been alive. Yet Burrow only ranks 4th in that stat, with 5 QBs averaging 9.1 or better.


In passer rating, Burrow is sitting pretty at 113.8, which used to be a staggering number. Montana and Steve Young once held that record at a shade over 112. Now Burrow's number is only good for 7th...which is insane.

15 qualifying QBs are currently sporting a 100 passer rating or better.

-------------------

I'm not trying to cheapen Burrow's accomplishments at all. He still ranks highly and is playing great football. I'm just wondering if the league shifted a little too far towards offense with some of the rule changes through the years.

...and please for the love of God, don't say this is evolution. The stats have been skyrocketing just over the last few years.

It is somewhat evolution, though, I believe.  

And the evolution has come largely from coaches taking advantage of the rules that favor offense.  The coaches have also developed plays that create spaces for QBs to put the ball with quick release moments.  Rub routes, screens, shallow crossers.  RBs being used in the passing attack.  LOW RISK THROWS.  I remember being in awe of the YPR of someone like Bob Trumpy back in his day being something ridiculous like 17 YPR.  They pushed the ball DOWN THE FIELD.  Now, it is a lot of nickel and dime teams, with the occasional shot.  

Kurt Warner was the last QB where it looked like every pass was 20 yards downfield.  He would hold it so long and wait for that WR to make his final break and then hit him.  In the process, however, he got hit A LOT.  Career shortened.  Now it is about protecting your QB from hits (Talk about evolution...look at the freaks that play DE in the league now) by getting the ball out quick, with designed routes to create space.  

I think the coaching from colleges that is just more creating has made its way to the NFL and where teams like a MAC team had to be creative with its offense to generate any points against the likes of an OSU made its way to a team like OSU and then the pros.  

Defenses will evolve as well.  We see crazy schemes in college designed to counter all the weapons on offense.  3-3-5 defenses.  You haven't seen it in the pros....but I am sure it will, uh evolve, as well (not trying to piss you off).  

[Shake n Blake]

(10-04-2021, 08:07 PM)BengalChris Wrote: We also saw Brees retire with the record passing yards only to have it broken 4 games into the next season.

The rules keep changing, as others have mentioned, to make scoring easier and defensing that scoring more difficult.

This isn't anything new though. In the 1930s 1324 yards was the record set in 1939 (Davey O'Brien). In 40s it was 2,938 (Sammy Baugh). In the 50s it was 2,899 (Johnny Unitas) - Damn I'm old I remember watching Unitas play. In the 60s it was 3,747 (Sonny Jurgensen). In the 70s it was 4,082 (Fouts). In the 80s it was 5,084 (Marino). In the 90s it was 4,690 (Warren Moon) and the first decade where it dropped. The 2000s was 5,069 (Drew Brees). The 10s it was 5,477 (Payton Manning).

Marino's 1984 record of 5,084 lasted until Drew Brees broke it in 2011 with 5,476 and that was promptly broken two years later by Payton Manning.

I agree most of what you say in the post, but I'd like to point out that when Marino set that record, no one else was throwing the ball like he was. He was in a class all his own. Now 5000 yards is something several guys have done. Often in multiple years.

In 1984, only 2 other QBs threw for over 4000 yards, and behind Marino's 48 TDs, the 2nd place finisher had 32.

(10-05-2021, 07:57 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: It is somewhat evolution, though, I believe.  

And the evolution has come largely from coaches taking advantage of the rules that favor offense.  The coaches have also developed plays that create spaces for QBs to put the ball with quick release moments.  Rub routes, screens, shallow crossers.  RBs being used in the passing attack.  LOW RISK THROWS.  I remember being in awe of the YPR of someone like Bob Trumpy back in his day being something ridiculous like 17 YPR.  They pushed the ball DOWN THE FIELD.  Now, it is a lot of nickel and dime teams, with the occasional shot.  

Kurt Warner was the last QB where it looked like every pass was 20 yards downfield.  He would hold it so long and wait for that WR to make his final break and then hit him.  In the process, however, he got hit A LOT.  Career shortened.  Now it is about protecting your QB from hits (Talk about evolution...look at the freaks that play DE in the league now) by getting the ball out quick, with designed routes to create space.  

I think the coaching from colleges that is just more creating has made its way to the NFL and where teams like a MAC team had to be creative with its offense to generate any points against the likes of an OSU made its way to a team like OSU and then the pros.  

Defenses will evolve as well.  We see crazy schemes in college designed to counter all the weapons on offense.  3-3-5 defenses.  You haven't seen it in the pros....but I am sure it will, uh evolve, as well (not trying to piss you off).  

You're good, man.

I was mainly talking about all the kids out there who think players physically evolve in a mere 20 years, and that's the primary reason for skyrocketing numbers.

What you're talking about, I agree with. Rules change and Coaches wisely take advantage. Playbooks evolve. Coaches and players are able to build off of decades of knowledge and advance. Especially with the rule changes that open the playbooks to things that may have been less feasible in the past.

[Savagehenry54]

(10-04-2021, 04:35 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Can we take a second to talk about how ridiculous passing has become?

Burrow is completing a whopping 72.9% of his throws. I know Steve Young held the record for like 20 years at 70.3% before Drew Brees broke it. Now we have 7 QBs at 70% or better, and Burrow is only 3rd.

Kyler Murray is completing 76.1%...which would be a good free throw percentage in the NBA.

Burrow is also averaging 9.2 yards/attempt, which is also incredible, and would easily lead the league most years I've been alive. Yet Burrow only ranks 4th in that stat, with 5 QBs averaging 9.1 or better.


In passer rating, Burrow is sitting pretty at 113.8, which used to be a staggering number. Montana and Steve Young once held that record at a shade over 112. Now Burrow's number is only good for 7th...which is insane.

15 qualifying QBs are currently sporting a 100 passer rating or better.

-------------------

I'm not trying to cheapen Burrow's accomplishments at all. He still ranks highly and is playing great football. I'm just wondering if the league shifted a little too far towards offense with some of the rule changes through the years.

...and please for the love of God, don't say this is evolution. The stats have been skyrocketing just over the last few years.

Well yea, the defense can't touch QBs anymore.  The players have to play how the refs call it.  Second year fresh off an acl and he's top ten across the board..The rules changed for everybody.

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-05-2021, 06:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I agree most of what you say in the post, but I'd like to point out that when Marino set that record, no one else was throwing the ball like he was. He was in a class all his own. Now 5000 yards is something several guys have done. Often in multiple years.

In 1984, only 2 other QBs threw for over 4000 yards, and behind Marino's 48 TDs, the 2nd place finisher had 32.


You're good, man.

I was mainly talking about all the kids out there who think players physically evolve in a mere 20 years, and that's the primary reason for skyrocketing numbers.

What you're talking about, I agree with. Rules change and Coaches wisely take advantage. Playbooks evolve. Coaches and players are able to build off of decades of knowledge and advance. Especially with the rule changes that open the playbooks to things that may have been less feasible in the past.

And where college used to imitate the pros, this time the pros imitated college.