I Saw Bengals Telegraphing Offense Plays To Jets Defense

[Shake n Blake]

(11-02-2021, 06:05 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Hey, I'll take a step back and admit that I can definitely come off as a dick. I don't mean to, I'm not trying to brow-beat kevin, but I can understand that I probably am. So, I'm sorry kevin. I'm not trying to be an asshole here (and sorry for being a jerk in general Shake, I know I've gotten red with you). Re-reading that post, I came across pretty aggressive but I wasn't trying to be aggressive. 

I did post data that details the Bengals performance based on seconds left on the play clock. If anything, Cincinnati seems to perform better when the play clock gets low. There isn't anything there to suggest otherwise.

My post wasn't aimed at you or anyone in particular. Just seems that the board in general has been more pissy this year. I just thought the OP at least made for an interesting discussion, and I'm just hoping for facts to be presented on both sides, because I'd like to learn something here, as on the surface, I think it sounds like a reasonable question.

Your data on the Bengals performing better when the play clock is low does seem to be a pretty big piece of evidence.

[GreenCornBengal]

When you have a cerebrally advanced QB like Burrow you tend to run the clock down to the last second. Defense give up tells the closer it gets to the snap and this is especially important on passing downs. Peyton Manning was the king of getting as close to 0:00 before the snap.

In regards to the running game, I don’t think it’s so much when they snap it as much as it is the personell and alignment. However, they’ve thrown in play action off of these looks that have been highly impactful (think CJs epic catch on 4th to seal the game). So, yes, it’s most likely gonna be run, and defenses key in on that but it’s paid off in key moments.

[leonardfan40]

Eh telegraph is outdated technology. Even if we tried to send them our plays that way I don’t think they’d be able to decipher it quickly enough to matter

[*Go Cards*]

We've got a young QB that may require an extra second to diagnose the defense.

Not trying to be rude but really don't see this as a big issue

[*Go Cards*]

(11-02-2021, 11:40 AM)jason Wrote: I saw the Jets telegraphing plays... Damn near every play I could see Mike White was gonna make a short pass to an RB or Jameson Crowder in space. No adjustment on our part.

Yep, noticed that as well

[ezekiel23]

I love no huddle offensive schemes,all while picking up the pace to get lined up.I do wish Bengals would use it more.I’m not sure if they used it against the Jets.Joe Burrow is good at it,and it appears he enjoys using it.

[thompson19osu]

I have noticed if we snap the ball with Tee in motion its going to be a run to Mixon, which is gernerally stuffed. Also when Joe audibled in the Ravens game with both hands to his head the Ravens shifted their D line and linebackers exactly to where the run was going. That said the Bengals scored 30+ points last game.

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-02-2021, 10:13 AM)kevin Wrote: A good example of this was The Bengals lined-up and took forever to snap the ball.  I could see it was going to be a hand-off to Mixon up the middle, way before ball was snapped.  Now if I could see it, then everybody could see it.  The Jets were all over Mixon sending him to the bench for injury repairs after he got gang tackled fast.  

So one of the problems Bengals may have is that sometimes they go so slow, and line-up, and take so much time to snap the ball, that sometimes everybody can see what play is coming.  If Bengals go back and look at the play Mixon got blown up on, they will see that they took so long at the line before the snap, that even I could see it was Mixon up the middle before they snapped the ball.  I'm not surprised The Jets were right there to hit him so hard, that Mixon had to go to the bench for injury repairs.

I would think Joe Burrow would be better in a faster moving offense that isn't telegraphing the plays.  It doesn't have to be the Sam Wyche Hurry Up, but just not as slow as a turtle either.  I saw Burrow and Chase in LSU games, and when Burrow gets the hot hand, he likes to speed up and keep the defense huffing and puffing to keep up with him. So a turtle speed offense is not good for a Joe Burrow team.

I'll add on that at LSU, Burrow would get hot and use Chase and others fast.  So he likes to hit teams Bang, Bang, Bang with Mixon, Chase, Higgins Boyd, Uzomah so fast that the Defense is huffing and puffing to keep up with all the plays and players coming at them so fast.   I just hope The Bengals aren't trying to fit Joe Burrow into the turtle slow moving Bengals offense that has won no play-off games in 30 years.  Let Joe Burrow do his thing.  It doesn't have to be the Sam Wyche Hurry Up, but some of those plays against the Jets I could see coming 5 to 10 seconds before the ball was snapped, especially the one Mixon got blown up in the backfield on, that took way too long to snap the ball and no wonder Jets were all over it.  So maybe instead of asking Burrow and Chase to adapt to all the 30 years of losing of Cincinnati, maybe Bengals could adapt and let Burrow and Chase run their much faster LSU type offense, because Bengals losing is nothing to value or hang on to.

Um. No you didn't. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-02-2021, 11:26 AM)Au165 Wrote: This is pretty high up there on bad threads of the season so far. There is no correlation between time to snap and knowing the play, that makes no sense at all. The real answer is we were running into the teeth of their defense rather than attacking the edge of it where we actually had success.

And that's saying something. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-02-2021, 04:42 PM)kevin Wrote: I wish The Bengals would look at the play Mixon got blown up on up the middle.  They will see it is not just a second or a split second.  They break the huddle, line up, and then stand there for the longest time, and you can see it is Mixon up the middle, and then they snap it just before delay of game and it is Mixon up the middle, and Jets knock him BANG backwards hard sending him to the bench needing medical attention.  

Now that play was too slow to get going, and it's already been stated on here that Bengals take more time to snap the ball than most NFL teams.  The Bengals may think they are reading the defense, but on many plays against Jets it looked like the Jets defense was reading Bengals slow moving offense.  

I repeat that Joe Burrow and Chase played at LSU in a fast moving offense. It is what Joe Burrow excels at.  They are not getting the most of Joe Burrow if they are not going to go more up tempo style that he is great in. Now with a good lead late, I can see eating the clock, but that was not the case when they took all day and Mixon got blown up for it.  

I wish The Bengals would go back and look at that play Mixon got clobbered on.  They will see that they took so long to snap the ball, they might as well have yelled out to The Jets that it was going to be Mixon Up The Middle. 

Did someone hack your account? Someone named Br...

Nevermind, i'm not going there. It looks kind of mean, though i don't mean it to be so i'm gonna let it go.

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-02-2021, 05:16 PM)kevin Wrote: The Bengals need to go back and look at the play Mixon got blown up on.  They took so much time at the line, they might as well have just yelled to The Jets that is was going to be Mixon up the middle.  Mixon looked like he ran into a brick wall and had to go to the sidelines.  

My other point is this slow moving style that others have already agreed the Bengals run, does not get the most out of Joe Burrow. Did anybody see Burrow and Chase at LSU.  Burrow gets in a rhythm and runs a play and while defense is still getting up, here come another play, and another play.  Burrow can flat wear a defense down as he hits receivers and hands off runs faster than the defense can get up from the last play. THAT is what Joe Burrow excels at, but Cincinnati Fans aren't seeing it because the 30 years with no play-off win Bengals like to go Turtle Slow.  What Joe Burrow is great at, The Bengals refuse to let him do.  Burrow is great at controlling The Tempo and running play after play before the defense can get ready, that is what he was great at with LSU with Chase and others. 

There has to be something tangible for it to correlate. What exactly is it that says 'run play up the middle' when the snap count takes longer?

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-02-2021, 05:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Sheesh people are soooo sensitive to any perceived sleight.

I don't know if there's anything to what Kevin is saying or not, but thus far, the only evidence presented (Bengals being 29th in time to snap) seems to help Kevin's case.

1 second on *average* is a bigger deal than yall think. It's not going to be 1 second every time. Sometimes its going to be one second faster than average. Other times, 2-3 seconds slower...and when we're talking about NFL defenders, an extra few seconds may help them diagnose some plays.

Let me just ask this: What was the point of the sugar huddle? Ok...now if we're the opposite of that, wouldn't it stand to reason that more plays could be diagnosed?

Can we have one discussion without getting offended? I think its an intriguing question, and maybe instead of arguing about it, we can have an intelligent discussion and get to the bottom of this? One can dream.

The point of the sugar huddle was to try and keep the defense from substituting, giving the offense an advantage by personnel. The icing on the cake was catching them in a substitution and quick snapping the ball, again giving them an advantage and possibly a penalty for too many men on the field. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-02-2021, 06:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: My post wasn't aimed at you or anyone in particular. Just seems that the board in general has been more pissy this year. I just thought the OP at least made for an interesting discussion, and I'm just hoping for facts to be presented on both sides, because I'd like to learn something here, as on the surface, I think it sounds like a reasonable question.

Your data on the Bengals performing better when the play clock is low does seem to be a pretty big piece of evidence.

I'll have to piggy back off KillerGoose in admitting that i've gone over the top with some of my replies. To keep this as general as possible, as well as pointing out that it's not meant as specifically insulting, the amount of posts that are just blatantly ill-conceived, erroneous and over-the-top negative with no basis in fact has just reached a tipping point for me. I don't come here to argue, in fact, i try to keep it as "fun" as i can but it can, and lately has, become really tedious which is a shame with how well the team is playing this year. 

And i agree with Au165 in that the way it's presented has a lot to do with it. 

I'll take responsibility for my dickish replies, but i'm only human so i can't say it's something i'll be able to corral for long periods of time. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-02-2021, 09:34 PM)thompson19osu Wrote: I have noticed if we snap the ball with Tee in motion its going to be a run to Mixon, which is gernerally stuffed. Also when Joe audibled in the Ravens game with both hands to his head the Ravens shifted their D line and linebackers exactly to where the run was going. That said the Bengals scored 30+ points last game.

But also during the Ravens game, Joe used the same hand signal that they used in the past for a quick screen. That's why 4 defenders jumped the LoS on the snap and left CJ wide open for one of his TDs. 

Head coaches and QBs are very aware of tendencies and not wanting to tip their hand, so "telegraphing" isn't as easy as people think. 

[Tony]

(11-02-2021, 10:13 AM)kevin Wrote: A good example of this was The Bengals lined-up and took forever to snap the ball.  I could see it was going to be a hand-off to Mixon up the middle, way before ball was snapped.  Now if I could see it, then everybody could see it.  The Jets were all over Mixon sending him to the bench for injury repairs after he got gang tackled fast.  

So one of the problems Bengals may have is that sometimes they go so slow, and line-up, and take so much time to snap the ball, that sometimes everybody can see what play is coming.  If Bengals go back and look at the play Mixon got blown up on, they will see that they took so long at the line before the snap, that even I could see it was Mixon up the middle before they snapped the ball.  I'm not surprised The Jets were right there to hit him so hard, that Mixon had to go to the bench for injury repairs.

I would think Joe Burrow would be better in a faster moving offense that isn't telegraphing the plays.  It doesn't have to be the Sam Wyche Hurry Up, but just not as slow as a turtle either.  I saw Burrow and Chase in LSU games, and when Burrow gets the hot hand, he likes to speed up and keep the defense huffing and puffing to keep up with him. So a turtle speed offense is not good for a Joe Burrow team.

I'll add on that at LSU, Burrow would get hot and use Chase and others fast.  So he likes to hit teams Bang, Bang, Bang with Mixon, Chase, Higgins Boyd, Uzomah so fast that the Defense is huffing and puffing to keep up with all the plays and players coming at them so fast.   I just hope The Bengals aren't trying to fit Joe Burrow into the turtle slow moving Bengals offense that has won no play-off games in 30 years.  Let Joe Burrow do his thing.  It doesn't have to be the Sam Wyche Hurry Up, but some of those plays against the Jets I could see coming 5 to 10 seconds before the ball was snapped, especially the one Mixon got blown up in the backfield on, that took way too long to snap the ball and no wonder Jets were all over it.  So maybe instead of asking Burrow and Chase to adapt to all the 30 years of losing of Cincinnati, maybe Bengals could adapt and let Burrow and Chase run their much faster LSU type offense, because Bengals losing is nothing to value or hang on to.

Finally, a post thats bot avoyt blocking and this is what you come up with? It takea linger cuz Joe ia readint the defense and checking in and out of plays...

[*PhilHos*]

(11-02-2021, 10:19 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'll take responsibility for my dick ... but i'm only ... able to corral for long periods of time. 

[fredtoast]

The obvious question is the exact amount of time it takes for everyone to know it is a run. I have seen the Bengals take their time at the line and throw the ball. So Kevin just news to give us more information. Then we can watch the replay and see if he is right.

[Au165]

(11-03-2021, 11:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The obvious question is the exact amount of time it takes for everyone to know it is a run. I have seen the Bengals take their time at the line and throw the ball. So Kevin just news to give us more information. Then we can watch the replay and see if he is right.

I literally watched it back yesterday and there were at least 10 passing attempts where the ball was snapped with under 6 seconds.

[fredtoast]

A lot of fans bash Mike Brown for being cheap but in this case it worked out well. No one else is still using a telegraph to send information. So even if we were telegraphing plays the Jets would not have had anyway to receive them.

I would have been much more upset it we had been texting or twittering the plays.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(11-03-2021, 01:05 AM)Tony Wrote: Finally, a post thats bot avoyt blocking and this is what you come up with? It takea linger cuz Joe ia reading the defense and checking in and out of plays...