Is Jackson Carman "Your" Starting LG

[XenoMorph]

(04-18-2022, 04:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I can't imagine any coach would do that.  They have to win to keep their jobs.  I am pretty sure they put their best players out there and don't really care when they were drafted.

Right Draft Position will keep you on a roster a few years possibly... And maybe give you more of an oppertunity to show what you have.  But end of the day the best players should play.

[BengalsBong]

The Bengals are not going to spend a high pick on LG or C. Carman was a high second round pick they will try to get him on the field as a starter.

[fredtoast]

(04-19-2022, 10:50 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: The Bengals are not going to spend a high pick on LG or C. Carman was a high second round pick they will try to get him on the field as a starter.

This.

Coaches said today Smith and Carman would compete at LG.  They also said Adeniji was a OG.  So I assume he will also get a shot.

[007BengalsFan]

(04-18-2022, 02:15 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Karras is a big upgrade over Hopkins especially in run blocking where Hop was pretty terrible. But it is true that Karras is a 
much better Guard than Hopkins, even more so. But yeah, maybe after the Draft we can sign someone like Tretter if need be.

In 2019 and 2020 when Karras played center he had a PFF grade in the 60s which was about the same grade as Hopkins.  When New England moved him to guard in 2021 he had a PFF of 72.8.  He has played guard much better than center.  As a center he has been on par with Hopkins.  The Bengals really should move Karras to LG and sign Tretter.  This way the line would be greatly improved.  You have Karras at LG with Carman backing him up, you have a great center like Tretter with the option of moving Karras back to that spot in case of an injury.  That line would be really good with adding just one more guy to the team.

If the Bengals go with the current planned line, you have a guy that plays center on par with the guy you just got rid of (Hopkins).  You also have a LG with serious question marks including back issues.  As of right now the Bengals have only improved two O-line positions, RG and RT.  That will certainly help but with 70 sacks given up last season, RG and RT were not the only issues on the O-line.  Burrow will be sacked less this year but I would be willing to bet if the Bengals dont make more adjustment to the O-line, the O-line still ends up in the bottom half of protecting the QB and sacks allowed.

[KillerGoose]

(04-20-2022, 11:35 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: In 2019 and 2020 when Karras played center he had a PFF grade in the 60s which was about the same grade as Hopkins.  When New England moved him to guard in 2021 he had a PFF of 72.8.  He has played guard much better than center.  As a center he has been on par with Hopkins.  The Bengals really should move Karras to LG and sign Tretter.  This way the line would be greatly improved.  You have Karras at LG with Carman backing him up, you have a great center like Tretter with the option of moving Karras back to that spot in case of an injury.  That line would be really good with adding just one more guy to the team.

If the Bengals go with the current planned line, you have a guy that plays center on par with the guy you just got rid of (Hopkins).  You also have a LG with serious question marks including back issues.  As of right now the Bengals have only improved two O-line positions, RG and RT.  That will certainly help but with 70 sacks given up last season, RG and RT were not the only issues on the O-line.  Burrow will be sacked less this year but I would be willing to bet if the Bengals dont make more adjustment to the O-line, the O-line still ends up in the bottom half of protecting the QB and sacks allowed.

Perhaps this is pedantic, but I have a hard time looking at a C grade of 65 and a G grade of 72 and coming to the conclusion that he played "much better" at G than C. Even if we assume that PFF grades are infallible, that's not a huge difference. This is how some false narratives end up getting thrown around about Karras being a significantly better guard than he was a center. He was marginally better at G than he was at C and when I watched the tape on him, I didn't really see this marginal difference. He was good at both. Going back to PFF grades, Hopkins had quite the poor grade last season. When Hopkins was grading in the 60's, everyone was quite happy with him. 

Who knows, maybe the Bengals will sign Tretter and kick Karras over to LG. Or, maybe they keep him at C and re-sign Spain to compete at LG. Both of these options are good solutions. We'll see after the draft what they want to do. 

[AtomicBlaze]

(04-20-2022, 12:14 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This.

Coaches said today Smith and Carman would compete at LG.  They also said Adeniji was a OG.  So I assume he will also get a shot.

So Carman won't have much competition.  I predict this won't go well if this is the plan.  He was a reach at where he was picked in the second round anyway so the high pick excuse thing is lame.  Even if Carman works out as a starter which is maybe a 10% chance in my opinion, we will regret not adding any talented O-Line depth.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-20-2022, 12:14 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This.

Coaches said today Smith and Carman would compete at LG.  They also said Adeniji was a OG.  So I assume he will also get a shot.

Of course the coaches would say that, those are the guys they have right now.  It's not like they're going to come out and say "We see the position we're in with our OL depth, and are intensely studying the upcoming draft prospects to find immediate upgrades from those guys".  

[Frank Booth]

(04-20-2022, 11:54 AM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: So Carman won't have much competition.  I predict this won't go well if this is the plan.  He was a reach at where he was picked in the second round anyway so the high pick excuse thing is lame.  Even if Carman works out as a starter which is maybe a 10% chance in my opinion, we will regret not adding any talented O-Line depth.

im cool with not drafting linderbaum, but that's only if there are plans to bring Spain back for the LG position. Carmen will need legit competition, and Spain is that guy to compete with

Bengals have to win now

[007BengalsFan]

(04-20-2022, 11:45 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Perhaps this is pedantic, but I have a hard time looking at a C grade of 65 and a G grade of 72 and coming to the conclusion that he played "much better" at G than C. Even if we assume that PFF grades are infallible, that's not a huge difference. This is how some false narratives end up getting thrown around about Karras being a significantly better guard than he was a center. He was marginally better at G than he was at C and when I watched the tape on him, I didn't really see this marginal difference. He was good at both. Going back to PFF grades, Hopkins had quite the poor grade last season. When Hopkins was grading in the 60's, everyone was quite happy with him. 

Who knows, maybe the Bengals will sign Tretter and kick Karras over to LG. Or, maybe they keep him at C and re-sign Spain to compete at LG. Both of these options are good solutions. We'll see after the draft what they want to do. 

Ive never been happy with Hopkins at center.   I am one of those fans that for the last few years have been pointing out how bad the Oline has been when many people have ignored the problems and have claimed the Oline is ok when it should have been clear to everyone the Oline was pretty bad.  The Oline was not ok last year or the year before that or the year before that.  Hopkins didnt just have a PFF grade like that last season.  His PFF grades were about the same the year before.

As far as Spain, if you resign him you have the same guy at LG who posted a 46 PFF for the playoffs including something like a 25 PFF for the Super Bowl.  The Bengals need better production than that at the LG position.  I think everyone expects the Bengals to make it to the playoffs again this season.  Is that the type of play you want want to have from your LG in post season? 

[KillerGoose]

(04-20-2022, 12:24 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: As far as Spain, if you resign him you have the same guy at LG who posted a 46 PFF for the playoffs including something like a 25 PFF for the Super Bowl.  The Bengals need better production than that at the LG position.  I think everyone expects the Bengals to make it to the playoffs again this season.  Is that the type of play you want want to have from your LG in post season? 

Context is important here, in my opinion. Spain was playing hurt and was carted off the field at the end of the season. I don't think it is a coincidence that his play was strong all season until after he was carted off.

[Frank Booth]

(04-20-2022, 12:24 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Ive never been happy with Hopkins at center.   I am one of those fans that for the last few years have been pointing out how bad the Oline has been when many people have ignored the problems and have claimed the Oline is ok when it should have been clear to everyone the Oline was pretty bad.  The Oline was not ok last year or the year before that or the year before that.  Hopkins didnt just have a PFF grade like that last season.  His PFF grades were about the same the year before.

As far as Spain, if you resign him you have the same guy at LG who posted a 46 PFF for the playoffs including something like a 25 PFF for the Super Bowl.  The Bengals need better production than that at the LG position.  I think everyone expects the Bengals to make it to the playoffs again this season.  Is that the type of play you want want to have from your LG in post season? 

wow, you dont learn do you? We discussed this. He was good all year, got hurt, and struggled against the 2 best DT's in the league against Tennessee and LA

but I suppose this will just bounce off your skull AGAIN

[bengals1969]

(04-20-2022, 11:54 AM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: So Carman won't have much competition.  I predict this won't go well if this is the plan.  He was a reach at where he was picked in the second round anyway so the high pick excuse thing is lame.  Even if Carman works out as a starter which is maybe a 10% chance in my opinion, we will regret not adding any talented O-Line depth.

Giving up so quickly on a high second round pick says the coaches blew it and Carman can’t play(10% chance of starting).

Bad way to run a team. It’s like buying EXXON at $45 and giving up after two years.

The Bengals are clear on draft priorities. It’s secondary all the way. Maybe the draft doesn’t offer them good value when it’s their turn to pick, such is life picking at #31.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-20-2022, 11:35 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: In 2019 and 2020 when Karras played center he had a PFF grade in the 60s which was about the same grade as Hopkins.  When New England moved him to guard in 2021 he had a PFF of 72.8.  He has played guard much better than center.  As a center he has been on par with Hopkins.  The Bengals really should move Karras to LG and sign Tretter.  This way the line would be greatly improved.  You have Karras at LG with Carman backing him up, you have a great center like Tretter with the option of moving Karras back to that spot in case of an injury.  That line would be really good with adding just one more guy to the team.

If the Bengals go with the current planned line, you have a guy that plays center on par with the guy you just got rid of (Hopkins).  You also have a LG with serious question marks including back issues.  As of right now the Bengals have only improved two O-line positions, RG and RT.  That will certainly help but with 70 sacks given up last season, RG and RT were not the only issues on the O-line.  Burrow will be sacked less this year but I would be willing to bet if the Bengals dont make more adjustment to the O-line, the O-line still ends up in the bottom half of protecting the QB and sacks allowed.

This is what I was getting at with people speaking of how much better Karras was at Guard then Center but you cannot put 
all your stock in PFF either man. I agree that I think it would be a better option to bring in Tretter after the Draft, same with 
Spain so we have much more competition if we don't Draft any OL somewhat early. Karras is much better than Hop at C and 
at Guard, I don't care what anyone says, about the same in pass protection but MUCH better in run blocking.

(04-20-2022, 11:45 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Perhaps this is pedantic, but I have a hard time looking at a C grade of 65 and a G grade of 72 and coming to the conclusion that he played "much better" at G than C. Even if we assume that PFF grades are infallible, that's not a huge difference. This is how some false narratives end up getting thrown around about Karras being a significantly better guard than he was a center. He was marginally better at G than he was at C and when I watched the tape on him, I didn't really see this marginal difference. He was good at both. Going back to PFF grades, Hopkins had quite the poor grade last season. When Hopkins was grading in the 60's, everyone was quite happy with him. 

Who knows, maybe the Bengals will sign Tretter and kick Karras over to LG. Or, maybe they keep him at C and re-sign Spain to compete at LG. Both of these options are good solutions. We'll see after the draft what they want to do. 

Nice post KillerGoose. Completely agree, that isn't a huge difference. Karras played well at both positions.

We will see what we do after the Draft.

(04-20-2022, 11:54 AM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: So Carman won't have much competition.  I predict this won't go well if this is the plan.  He was a reach at where he was picked in the second round anyway so the high pick excuse thing is lame.  Even if Carman works out as a starter which is maybe a 10% chance in my opinion, we will regret not adding any talented O-Line depth.

I am higher on Carman than you that is for sure but I do agree that we need as much competition with Carman as possible 
with his back issues. I think Carman was picked where he should of been if the back wasn't a problem but it was a problem
and even the biggest Carman backer like me has to acknowledge this and just want the best player playing at LG.

Whether it is Karras or Carman or a Draft pick or D'Ante Smith, I honestly don't care. But competition will sift out the best.

(04-20-2022, 12:22 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Of course the coaches would say that, those are the guys they have right now.  It's not like they're going to come out and say "We see the position we're in with our OL depth, and are intensely studying the upcoming draft prospects to find immediate upgrades from those guys".  

True.

(04-20-2022, 12:24 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Ive never been happy with Hopkins at center.   I am one of those fans that for the last few years have been pointing out how bad the Oline has been when many people have ignored the problems and have claimed the Oline is ok when it should have been clear to everyone the Oline was pretty bad.  The Oline was not ok last year or the year before that or the year before that.  Hopkins didnt just have a PFF grade like that last season.  His PFF grades were about the same the year before.

As far as Spain, if you resign him you have the same guy at LG who posted a 46 PFF for the playoffs including something like a 25 PFF for the Super Bowl.  The Bengals need better production than that at the LG position.  I think everyone expects the Bengals to make it to the playoffs again this season.  Is that the type of play you want want to have from your LG in post season? 

You put a lot of stock in PFF, much more than me. Spain was injured and that is when he played poorly

(04-20-2022, 12:30 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Context is important here, in my opinion. Spain was playing hurt and was carted off the field at the end of the season. I don't think it is a coincidence that his play was strong all season until after he was carted off.

This.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-06-2022, 09:13 PM)WVUHomer Wrote: Honestly, I'll be hammered hard on this, I would. We still have needs at CB, 3T and S. JC was a high pick so its inconceivable they throw in the towel so fast. Between those 3 though, I alternate between DT and CB with edge to CB slightly. Despite me loving CTB, if Elam is there at 31, I think I take him and don't look back. 3T, Winfrey fits their Senior Bowl standout player preference and was disruptive in the backfield all week.

Yep.
Defense needs an injection of some draft picks.
Team is perfectly poised to add some early defensive players who won't have to be forced into action right away. They can be used as part of a rotation (DL), have a good camp battle for starting reps (CB), or groom for a year behind veterans in the final year of their contracts (SAF).

I'm fully on board with spending the first two picks on defense and then getting a new offensive player or two in Rds 3-4.
Probably would lean TE/OL in those mid rounds.

Rds 5-7 purely for depth/ST.

[fredtoast]

(04-20-2022, 12:24 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote:   I am one of those fans that for the last few years have been pointing out how bad the Oline has been when many people have ignored the problems and have claimed the Oline is ok when it should have been clear to everyone the Oline was pretty bad.

What planet did you just come from where Bengal fans said the O-line was okay?

[Joelist]

Part of this is the myth that the Bengals were uninjured last season. What happened was that the injuries took a while to kick in but they were there and concentrated on DL and OL.

On OL remember we lost Reiff and then in quick succession we had injuries to Spain, Adeniji and Carman. Add in the earlier injury to D'Ante Smith and one sees why we had to go into postseason with BOTH Guards playing hurt.

On DL there was Ossai and lest we forget we did not have Og for postseason. So we were lacking on depth.

The DL mostly held up anyway (and BJ Hill played out of his mind good). The rash of guard injuries plus no Reiff finally caught up to us.

[Frank Booth]

(04-20-2022, 04:32 PM)Joelist Wrote: Part of this is the myth that the Bengals were uninjured last season. What happened was that the injuries took a while to kick in but they were there and concentrated on DL and OL.

On OL remember we lost Reiff and then in quick succession we had injuries to Spain, Adeniji and Carman. Add in the earlier injury to D'Ante Smith and one sees why we had to go into postseason with BOTH Guards playing hurt.

On DL there was Ossai and lest we forget we did not have Og for postseason. So we were lacking on depth.

The DL mostly held up anyway (and BJ Hill played out of his mind good). The rash of guard injuries plus no Reiff finally caught up to us.

dont forget, XSF was the starting RG to begin the year

then he got injured almost immediately

[Joelist]

(04-20-2022, 04:38 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: dont forget, XSF was the starting RG to begin the year

then he got injured almost immediately

Right. Add that to the list. The OG room got nailed hard as the season went on. 

We have to remember that the Bengals matured faster than planned. The team took a calculated gamble in 2021 in drafting three OL players and having a backup room largely consisting of rookies and second year players. They expected to be rotating the rooks in as a season that likely did not involve playoffs happened so that this year (the year they EXPECTED to push) they would have seasoning. 

Well, the team matured early AND two of our three OL picks got hurt. It happens. I still think we bring back Spain so we have vets on both sides (assuming he is 100%) and if Spain isn't then we are going to see another veteran OL pickup.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-20-2022, 04:32 PM)Joelist Wrote: Part of this is the myth that the Bengals were uninjured last season. What happened was that the injuries took a while to kick in but they were there and concentrated on DL and OL.

On OL remember we lost Reiff and then in quick succession we had injuries to Spain, Adeniji and Carman. Add in the earlier injury to D'Ante Smith and one sees why we had to go into postseason with BOTH Guards playing hurt.

On DL there was Ossai and lest we forget we did not have Og for postseason. So we were lacking on depth.

The DL mostly held up anyway (and BJ Hill played out of his mind good). The rash of guard injuries plus no Reiff finally caught up to us.

(04-20-2022, 04:38 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: dont forget, XSF was the starting RG to begin the year

then he got injured almost immediately

Yeah, we were hit with injuries big time. It was that players stepped up and played well as being the main reason we reached 
the Super Bowl. Our Defense played great down the stretch and Burrow and company played good just enough to edge out the
best teams with our dynamite rookie Kicker who was clutch.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-20-2022, 04:50 PM)Joelist Wrote: Right. Add that to the list. The OG room got nailed hard as the season went on. 

We have to remember that the Bengals matured faster than planned. The team took a calculated gamble in 2021 in drafting three OL players and having a backup room largely consisting of rookies and second year players. They expected to be rotating the rooks in as a season that likely did not involve playoffs happened so that this year (the year they EXPECTED to push) they would have seasoning. 

Well, the team matured early AND two of our three OL picks got hurt. It happens. I still think we bring back Spain so we have vets on both sides (assuming he is 100%) and if Spain isn't then we are going to see another veteran OL pickup.

Feel the same as usual. We will bring back Spain or another vet after the Draft. Need competition with Carman badly with his 
injury and the fact he just hasn't been consistent in pass protection yet. He was much better at LG but that was a small window
of play we saw when Spain got hurt.