Is Jackson Carman "Your" Starting LG

[bonesaw]

(05-19-2022, 11:57 AM)jason Wrote: Volson has a chance to be the first lineman to bring home the Golden Binns Award since Christian Westerman.

I'm kidding. I hope he's great.

I believe to this day Christian Westerman's time training boxing will be the reason he is able to come back, start, and become All Pro

And Hobs will back me up on that

[fredtoast]

(05-19-2022, 04:30 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: It DOES happen though. Geno Atkins is one of the best Bengals of all time and was a 4th rounder. 

Atkins was All Pro 3 times.

Pro Bowl 8 times.

Zero starts as a rookie.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-19-2022, 08:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Atkins was All Pro 3 times.

Pro Bowl 8 times.

Zero starts as a rookie.

Boling had 3 starts as a 4th round rookie.

[fredtoast]

(05-19-2022, 09:10 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Boling had 3 starts as a 4th round rookie.

And we had a problem on our O-line when he did.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-19-2022, 09:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And we had a problem on our O-line when he did.

The point is he held his own, and never gave the job back up.

[*bfine32*]

(05-19-2022, 12:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think I have said this before, but if a 4th round pick strays as a rookie then we have a big problem on our o-line.

It's really not that uncommon for an interior Olineman. Of the final 4 teams last year:

Rams: David Edwards was drafted in the 5th Rd and started as a rookie

Chiefs: Trey Smith was drafted in the 6th Rd and started as a rookie

Bengals: Quinton Spain was an UDFA and started as a rookie. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

I hope he is, but until back injury is a thing of the past, i can't trust him to play a full year

[casear2727]

(05-19-2022, 12:07 AM)Emeritus Wrote:

I'm going on the record right now to tell you that I believe that Cordell Volson "WILL" be the starting left guard for the Cincinnati Bengals.....
Highlights:
https://youtu.be/G_h-m8zAUtY
Coaches:
https://youtu.be/P8Y6hVHADiw
Thats my story and Im sticking to it!

The only way that this doesn't happen in my opinion will be due to politics. Now your idea of that is just that. Its not so certain now and I'll leave it there..
ITS THE BIGGEST BATTLE IN CAMP!
The answer to my question is... Absolutely Not!

This is a very odd take. Politics have nothing to do with starting in the NFL, this isnt middle school. Players chosen in the 4th round have a certain level of expectation - Day 1 starter isnt one of them.

[casear2727]

(04-24-2022, 01:02 AM)tms Wrote: He is not. He had a chance to seize his role in the offense last year- at basically whatever position he wanted to play, save for LT- and he was relegated to Teams. We were forced to use injured players and back-end rotation guys as stopgaps on one of the most porous lines in the league, and he still couldn't find a way to contribute. At a time of great need when we literally had a Super Bowl in our sights, he seemed quite happy to hold himself to jumbo packages and field goals.

There could be other reasons, but I side with Occam on this one: sometimes the simplest explanation is the most likely. He's just not the right guy.

This is a bit much.  He was a terrible pick with the quality players still on the board. But... he came into camp coming off a back injury, was forced to switch positions and switch sides.  He was never going to play tackle and RG was the spot pre-planned for him.  He is very young and was not ready to be a pro.

He did have much better grades at LG and the step up for guys that moved from tackle to guard is higher in year 2 than those that came in as guards and continued to play guard.

It is silly to rule him out so early, we would be dumb not to give him a chance to win that LG spot.

[fredtoast]

(05-19-2022, 10:15 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: The point is he held his own, and never gave the job back up.

That was not my point.

I like Volson's potential, but I don't see him as being good as a rookie.  Just like Clint.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-19-2022, 08:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Atkins was All Pro 3 times.

Pro Bowl 8 times.

Zero starts as a rookie.

(05-19-2022, 09:10 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Boling had 3 starts as a 4th round rookie.

Yep, so neither was the starter for the full year (or even most of the year) as a rookie.
Both ended up becoming very good starters, just not as rookies.

Note also when those guys were picked in the 4th round compared to Volson:
Atkins - 101st overall (basically beginning Rd 4)
Boling - 120th overall (just about middle Rd 4)
Volson - 136th overall (tail end of Rd 4)

Some other Bengals taken in the 130-140 range since 2010?
Michael Jordan
D'Ante Smith
Ryan Glasgow
Marcus Hardison
Robert Sands
Roddrick Muckelroy

Jordan got 9 starts as a rookie, but we know how terrible that was.

I'm not saying Volson will be as bad as Jordan and those other guys above, but it's unrealistic to think he's going to come in Day 1 and be a quality starter. I expect Volson won't sniff a start until at least the later half of the season, if at all his rookie year.

[fredtoast]

(05-19-2022, 10:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's really not that uncommon for an interior Olineman. Of the final 4 teams last year:

Rams: David Edwards was drafted in the 5th Rd and started as a rookie

Chiefs: Trey Smith was drafted in the 6th Rd and started as a rookie

Bengals: Quinton Spain was an UDFA and started as a rookie. 

Titans had a big problem with their O-line when Spain started as a rookie.

Trey Smith was 3 time All-SEC player who just dropped because of medical issues.  Volson is nothing close to that.

I assume that Edwards started due to injury since he was active but did not start until week 7.

And 3 times in the last decade is not "common".

[Soonerpeace]

Carman was babied at Clemson. There were some inaccurate reports about him during the draft process. Carman can be a solid player. His back did limit him but he’s got to get with it. He’s left them with little patience. However it sounds like the light has come on. I hope that’s the case.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-20-2022, 10:10 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Carman was babied at Clemson. There were some inaccurate reports about him during the draft process. Carman can be a solid player. His back did limit him but he’s got to get with it. He’s left them with little patience. However it sounds like the light has come on. I hope that’s the case.

Jackson Carman had just turned 21 a few months prior to the draft last year.
Seems odd to have "little patience" with someone who is just going into their 2nd year at 22 years old having switched positions and was recovering from a back injury last year.

If people wanna be upset that the Bengals drafted someone early who was injured when drafted and knew there would be some recovery time, while also planning to change that player's position, that's fine. But don't be mad at Carman for that.
Be mad at the fact the Bengals should have drafted someone who was already familiar and comfortable playing RG and playing it well.
I thought Wyatt Davis made more sense than Carman if looking for a true RG. I didn't think Davis was going to fall to 48 though, let alone all the way to 86.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-20-2022, 10:42 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Jackson Carman had just turned 21 a few months prior to the draft last year.
Seems odd to have "little patience" with someone who is just going into their 2nd year at 22 years old having switched positions and was recovering from a back injury last year.

If people wanna be upset that the Bengals drafted someone early who was injured when drafted and knew there would be some recovery time, while also planning to change that player's position, that's fine. But don't be mad at Carman for that.
Be mad at the fact the Bengals should have drafted someone who was already familiar and comfortable playing RG and playing it well.
I thought Wyatt Davis made more sense than Carman if looking for a true RG. I didn't think Davis was going to fall to 48 though, let alone all the way to 86.

The patience is unrelated to ability. More so work ethic. But I hear it’s much better.

[KillerGoose]

Since 2010, only 22% of guards selected in the 4th round or later have started more than three games in their rookie season. Out of this 22%, the average PFF grade is 56.6. If we raise our criteria of being a starter to starting eight games or more, only 6% of guards selected from the 4th round or later qualify. The average PFF grade is 56.78.

It's pretty rare, and not very good when it does happen.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-20-2022, 10:48 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: The patience is unrelated to ability. More so work ethic. But I hear it’s much better.

I feel like if the Bengals were really losing patience with Carman's work ethic already, they'd have brought in a veteran (at least a stopgap) to not have to rely on him or a Day 3 rookie to start.
Just my opinion though.

[fredtoast]

(05-20-2022, 10:10 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Carman was babied at Clemson. 

What does this even mean?

He played with a back injury that required surgery. Is that being "babied".

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-20-2022, 10:56 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Since 2010, only 22% of guards selected in the 4th round or later have started more than three games in their rookie season. Out of this 22%, the average PFF grade is 56.6. If we raise our criteria of being a starter to starting eight games or more, only 6% of guards selected from the 4th round or later qualify. The average PFF grade is 56.78.

It's pretty rare, and not very good when it does happen.

Someone ? Leonard Leap or Fred maybe ? Did a thread several years ago on the success rate of draft picks by round. Success being average or above starters that had some length of career. And if memory serves the drop off after the 3rd round is pretty severe.

Oh there's always exceptions (Geno Atkins) but those are fairly few and far between.

[fredtoast]

(05-19-2022, 07:11 PM)bonesaw Wrote: I believe to this day Christian Westerman's time training boxing will be the reason he is able to come back, start, and become All Pro

And Hobs will back me up on that

Anyone remember the MMA guy (Glazer?) that was supposed to help so many Bengals?