Chase’s route tree against Baltimore

[Tony]

(10-12-2022, 09:26 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Yes. My thoughts this year after weeks 1 & 2 is they're playing too conservative because of the sack count and the heat the team was getting because Burrow was still getting mauled after an OL overhaul. Main goal is to get the ball out of Burrow's hands. This doesn't leave him much time to look at the field. Last week we ran more screen plays than ever which does 2 things. 1. Get's the ball out quickly. 2. Hides the ineptitude of the OL. 

If we look at what makes Burrow successful, it sure isn't the quick release. Burrow has a good pocket presence, is a good runner and great at extending plays to find his target. Honestly, I think he thrives on panic play. Looking at the routes above, I would love to compare last year vs. this year. 

Actually Burrow is top 3 passing % when the ball.comes out before 2.5 seconds and his quick release is always talked about..

[Tony]

(10-12-2022, 08:57 AM)Sled21 Wrote: So who draws up the route trees anyway, the head coach or the offensive coordinator. While Taylor is calling most plays (we assume) wouldn't it be Callahan's job to draw up the plays before the installs??

You really Love you some Zac, huh? Like he don't have any input on the plays drawn up..What's the point of calling someone else's playbook anyway? That don't make much sense..

[*PhilHos*]

(10-12-2022, 10:02 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I am looking more at JJ going over the middle of the field - crossing routes, slants, etc. 

And as I pointed out, I'm pretty sure Chase wasn't on the field for only 12ish plays. I'd like to see ALL of his routes before criticizing that he didn't run certain ones.

Maybe he did run crossing routes, slants, comebacks, sluggos, etc. but wasn't thrown to on any of them. I don't know, but before we can criticize that he didn't run certain routes, why don't we see if he actually did or did not run those routes?

[Bengalstripes9]

Yeah he needs a more diverse tree for sure.

[WeezyBengal]

(10-12-2022, 10:04 AM)PhilHos Wrote: And as I pointed out, I'm pretty sure Chase wasn't on the field for only 12ish plays. I'd like to see ALL of his routes before criticizing that he didn't run certain ones.

Maybe he did run crossing routes, slants, comebacks, sluggos, etc. but wasn't thrown to on any of them. I don't know, but before we can criticize that he didn't run certain routes, why don't we see if he actually did or did not run those routes?

Agree with that - any way of getting all the routes? 

Also, don't forget about Burrows chart to all receivers. It echos what we see in the Chase chart: 

[HarleyDog]

(10-12-2022, 10:02 AM)Tony Wrote: Actually Burrow is top 3 passing % when the ball.comes out before 2.5 seconds and his quick release is always talked about..

2.5 seconds seems like an eternity compared to what I seen in Baltimore.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-12-2022, 09:33 AM)higgy100 Wrote: Absolutely and alot is also by habit at this point. JB has developed some bad habits, obviously, with the lack of time last year and into this year and it's not easy to overcome those. Plus, it's awfully difficult to look at this chart and say Chase needs to run the same routes as Jefferson.

I'm not saying that ZT doesn't need to get his head out of his ass as I've said it before all the times the running game wasn't working, yet, he would still give Mixon the ball 2X inside the 10 for nothing. All of this is also based on the offensive philosophy and concepts they incorporate. Jefferson is also the deep threat for them. Bengals have Tee Higgins that also plays on the outside and is even as good a deep threat or even better than Chase.Everything works itself out when you can run the ball better on 1st/2nd down than they have the past couple years. 2nd/3rd and 3/4 is a world of difference over 3rd and 7.

Doesn’t have to be the exact same routes, but look at the variety of JJ’s compared to Chase’s. That’s the issue. It’s just way too basic for a guy that can run every route, and line up at every spot.

[Nepa]

(10-12-2022, 02:39 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

Ja’marr routes vs JJ’s routes. Night & DEY. pic.twitter.com/IXcYoyX4H7

— Wincy (@WincinnatiPod) October 12, 2022

This is absolutely shocking when you actually look at it. These coaches have to do a much better job of putting their players in a position to thrive. Cause this ain’t it.

Who is Wincy and where did this person come up with the route tree? How do we know this is a valid rendition of the route tree?

[WeezyBengal]

(10-12-2022, 10:39 AM)Nepa Wrote: Who is Wincy and where did this person come up with the route tree? How do we know this is a valid rendition of the route tree?

It's from ESPN next gen stats he just reposted it. 

[MileHighGrowler]

This is interesting, but only tells part of the story. It seems to be based on receptions, not overall routes run. It doesn't take into account what any other receiver on the field is also doing. Both of those missing pieces would help show whether it's play design or Burrow's choice (or if guys just aren't getting free based on coverages).

But it does seem to show the trend everyone has noticed with the naked eye test; this team is playing super conservatively repeatedly. Not taking/making shots down the field, not utilizing the middle of the field. I get that the OL was a disaster out of the gate this year and the sack count was through the roof so the short pass would have been favored early. But that seems to have stabilized and Burrow has had time, yet they're still running the same conservative routes.

If this team is going to make a run, they're going to need to get into their rhythm of being aggressive and taking shots. It won't always work, but it seems what the team is suited for with all the weapons, and it's sure a lot more fun to watch than the way they've been playing. And honestly, that aggressive attitude seemed to be their personality last year and was the foundation of the swagger.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-12-2022, 02:39 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

Ja’marr routes vs JJ’s routes. Night & DEY. pic.twitter.com/IXcYoyX4H7

— Wincy (@WincinnatiPod) October 12, 2022

This is absolutely shocking when you actually look at it. These coaches have to do a much better job of putting their players in a position to thrive. Cause this ain’t it.

That should be literally embarrassing to this coaching staff. 

If you're not a Belichick or Reid type and you don't listen to the "outside noise", likely that you're not going to get any better. 

So much data out there to show where the Bengals are going wrong and how to correct it, but is Taylor too stubborn...

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-12-2022, 10:47 AM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: This is interesting, but only tells part of the story. It seems to be based on receptions, not overall routes run. It doesn't take into account what any other receiver on the field is also doing. Both of those missing pieces would help show whether it's play design or Burrow's choice (or if guys just aren't getting free based on coverages).

It’s not just receptions. It also shows incomplete routes.

[2MinutesHate]

(10-12-2022, 10:07 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Agree with that - any way of getting all the routes? 

Also, don't forget about Burrows chart to all receivers. It echos what we see in the Chase chart: 

When Burrow only attempts 6 passes that travel more than 10 yards through the air (1 for a TD) and then you look at Chase's routes when targeted, the playcalling ineptitude becomes very apparent.  The D Coordinator from Baltimore was likely very happy with this approach as it was probably really easy keeping track of our best WR.

Zac wants to call the plays, even if the team is suffering from it.  I don't see that changing or him getting better at it anytime soon.  I would think it takes years to become a master at NFL playcalling as it must be very complex.

[*rfaulk34*]

But here's the thing, objectively. With the line troubles, i can see why they would want to shorten up his routes and try to get the ball in his hands. 

BUT. Try some ***** slants and crossers, quick hitters that are more likely to be open and give him room to work. Everything in Taylor's offense is vertical and outside the numbers. The middle of the field is like a red-headed stepchild at dinner--never fed. 

[TecmoBengals]

If we're seeing all this information through the almighty internet, then sure the Bengals "analytics guys" are also presenting similar, and more advanced info, to Zac for consideration, right?

Are Taylor and Callahan having Chase run simple routes because they aren't good enough to develop better plays or do they keep it simple because they don't believe the talent can execute more complex plays?

Either way, change is needed with the approach.

[impactplaya]

Chase excelled on crossing routes last year.
It's betwixting why it's not a Staple in
How the offense is attacking the defense.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-12-2022, 10:54 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It’s not just receptions. It also shows incomplete routes.

I'm pretty sure Chase was on the field for more than just 12 pass plays.

[MileHighGrowler]

(10-12-2022, 10:54 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It’s not just receptions. It also shows incomplete routes.

This didn't seem right so I went and checked stats.  I see that Chase has 53 targets on the year, and 32 receptions.  That graph isn't telling the whole story. Which leaves even more question marks as to the full picture. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-12-2022, 11:13 AM)PhilHos Wrote: I'm pretty sure Chase was on the field for more than just 12 pass plays.

Well yeah, this is just his targets I assume. Which includes incompletions.

(10-12-2022, 11:15 AM)MileHighGrowler Wrote: This didn't seem right so I went and checked stats.  I see that Chase has 53 targets on the year, and 32 receptions.  That graph isn't telling the whole story. Which leaves even more question marks as to the full picture. 

It’s only the Ravens game.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-12-2022, 11:21 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Well yeah, this is just his targets I assume. Which includes incompletions.

That's my point. People are criticizing the lack of creativity on Chase routes and I'm just saying, let's look at ALL of his routes before making that determination.