Jonah Williams Requests Trade

[SunsetBengal]

(04-07-2023, 01:53 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Volson is a terrific player I agree

There's a quote for the Post Hall of Fame!  

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-07-2023, 03:12 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: There's a quote for the Post Hall of Fame!  

Too bad it's buried somewhere on this site...

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(04-07-2023, 01:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Maybe a few? Here are the LTs currently for teams:

AFC North:
CIN - Orlando Brown
CLE - Wills
PIT - Dan Moore
BAL - Stanley

AFC East:
BUF - Dawkins
NE - Trent Brown
NYJ - Bekton
MIA - Armstead

AFC South:
HOU - Tunsil
TEN - Dillard I think (Although Vrabel said he'll have to "earn" the LT job)
IND - Raimann
JAX - Cam Robinson

AFC West:
LAC - Slater/Salyer
KC - Taylor (They said they were shifting him to LT at least)
LV - Miller
DEN - Bolles

NFC West:
ARZ - Humphries
LAR - Noteboom
SEA - Cross
SF - Trent Williams

NFC East:
NYG - Thomas
WAS - Leno
DAL - Tyler Smith
PHI - Mailata

NFC South:
NO - Hurst
ATL - Matthews
TB - ?? (was Donovan Smith but he still FA)
CAR - Ekwonu

NFC North:
MIN - Darrisaw
GB - Bakhtiari
DET - Sewell
CHI - Braxton Jones

The ones I think that COULD be possibilities are in bold. So I really only see 5 potential spots.
However, there are a few LTs I'd look to take in the draft before trading for Jonah - Peter Skoronski, Paris Johnson, Broderick Jones
You may be able to toss Anton Harrison in there too.

Here's where each of the bolded teams have their first draft pick:
TEN - 11th overall
NYJ - 13th overall
TB - 19th overall
NO - 29th overall
LAR - 36th overall

Jets and Titans are in a great position to get one of the three OTs I mentioned if they want a new guy instead of Becton/Dillard. 
Titans just signed Dillard, so I doubt they'll draft LT, but they might if they get their pick of the litter.
TB I think is a lock to draft an OT.
Lewan and Donovan Smith are out there to sign off the street if anyone doesn't get an OT they like and doesn't want to give up a draft pick.
Reports are New Orleans believe in Trevor Penning as potential future LT if he can stay healthy, but we'll have to see.

Nicely done!

So by your well laid out selections, at best, he's maybe the 27th rated LT in the league BEFORE the draft and definitely rated lower afterwards. Personally I think that 27th is a little high as a few of the teams in bold probably feel better about "their guy" going forward than they do about JW. Let him pout. He's most likely going nowhere.

[NATI BENGALS]

I thought TB was going to move Wirfs to LT

[phil413]

Ocho, thanks for all the work.

It would be mutually beneficiary if the Bengals asked him to find his own trade but keep it on the DL. If a team does want him, contact the Bengals FO. That way team Jonah gets a reality check on his actual worth and the FO gets to see how serious he is about not playing. Then Jonah gets to be the mature one that came around and decided to help do his part to win a ring for the team. Even if he does a below average job at RT, that position is getting paid a lot more than previous years and teams know the job he did ar LT isn't as bad as last year alone.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-09-2023, 07:59 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Nicely done!

So by your well laid out selections, at best, he's maybe the 27th rated LT in the league BEFORE the draft and definitely rated lower afterwards. Personally I think that 27th is a little high as a few of the teams in bold probably feel better about "their guy" going forward than they do about JW. Let him pout. He's most likely going nowhere.

I don't know if I'd say he's the 27th rated LT before the draft necessarily.
There are some guys who were drafted within the past 1-2 years that are currently the LTs, but those teams aren't likely going to take a 1-year rental and instead stick with their early-round draft pick.

Case in point:
Raimann in Indy (7 sacks allowed, 27 total pressures)
Cross in Seattle (7 sacks allowed, 48 total pressures)
Ekwonu in Carolina (6 sacks allowed, 27 total pressures)
Jones in Chicago (7 sacks allowed, 40 total pressures)
Tyler Smith in Dallas (6 sacks allowed, 39 total pressures)

Jonah was tacked with more sacks than these rookies drafted last year, but he did allow about the same total pressures as Smith, Jones, and Cross.
Some (or even all) of these 2022 rookies could end up being worse than Jonah once they get into 3-4 seasons in their careers, but there probably isn't enough there yet to say they NEED to swap in Jonah for this year.

[bengaloo]

I hope the situation works out well for all involved. I like Jonah, but I think he not only lost his starting LT job to a pro bowl caliber LT, but he is going to lose the starting RT job to Carman and also Collins once he's 100% healthy and Jonah might be on the outside looking in when it comes to a big new deal anywhere if that happens. I dont think Jonah is strong enough to compete with those guys. Jackson has a much higher ceiling at this point and showed it when he finally got a chance to play OT. Jonah has to find a system that fits him better or something.

[Frank Booth]

(04-10-2023, 04:22 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I hope the situation works out well for all involved. I like Jonah, but I think he not only lost his starting LT job to a pro bowl caliber LT, but he is going to lose the starting RT job to Carman and also Collins once he's 100% healthy and Jonah might be on the outside looking in when it comes to a big new deal anywhere if that happens. I dont think Jonah is strong enough to compete with those guys. Jackson has a much higher ceiling at this point and showed it when he finally got a chance to play OT. Jonah has to find a system that fits him better or something.

I want to bring up some logic for you to try and refute, but you'll prob just ignore them and rely on your feelings. But I'll try and talk with you...

Explain how a league average starting LT will lose to a completely banged up Collins(who wasnt good at RT anyways in 2022 when he had less health problems), 

and explain how he will lose to Carmen, despite Carmen being bad his whole tenure except for the buffalo game

go ahead and explain without your feelings

[*ochocincos*]

(04-10-2023, 04:32 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I want to bring up some facts and logic for you to try and refute, but you'll prob just ignore them and rely on your feelings. But I'll try and talk with you...

Explain how a league average starting LT will lose to a completely banged up Collins(who wasnt good at RT anyways in 2022 when he had less health problems), 

and explain how he will lose to Carmen, despite Carmen being bad his whole tenure except for the buffalo game

go ahead and explain without your feelings

This wasn't to me, but I'll respond.

Some people (not me) think that Jonah will be worse at RT than LT, where he has been serviceable prior to 2022.
They don't know that for certain, they are making an assumption/guess.

As for Carman, he only allowed 1 total pressure (1 sack) in the 32 snaps at OT this year prior to the Buffalo game.
In the Buffalo playoff game, he allowed 3 total pressures with 0 sacks.
He performed exactly the same in the KC playoff game. 3 total pressures, 0 sacks.

If Carman performed a full season at LT like he did in the 3 playoff games (1 sack, 7 total pressures), he'd have ~6 sacks allowed, ~40 total pressures.
That's better than what Jonah did last year (12 sacks, 43 total pressures) and 2021 (8 sacks, 43 total pressures), but not a crazy improvement.


Let's not act though like Carman would be perfectly fine handling RT but Jonah wouldn't. Carman hasn't been playing RT either. We'd be looking for two LTs and an OG to transition (back) to RT. Ford hasn't done much at RT since 2019 when he allowed 8 sacks and 35 total pressures in 449 pass blocking snaps. Jonah Williams played 724 pass block snaps in the regular season last year.

Ultimately, we got a bunch of unproven and/or bad players for RT while Collins is on the mend.
Jonah - hasn't played RT since college
Carman - hasn't played RT
Ford - last played primarily RT in 2019
Adeniji - lol
Smith - more lol

With all of that said, I do think Pollack has confidence in RT between Carman, Ford, and Jonah, at least as a stopgap until Collins is back healthy.

[Frank Booth]

(04-10-2023, 04:57 PM)ochocincos Wrote: This wasn't to me, but I'll respond.

Some people (not me) think that Jonah will be worse at RT than LT, where he has been serviceable prior to 2022.
They don't know that for certain, they are making an assumption/guess.

As for Carman, he only allowed 1 total pressure (1 sack) in the 32 snaps at OT this year prior to the Buffalo game.
In the Buffalo playoff game, he allowed 3 total pressures with 0 sacks.
He performed exactly the same in the KC playoff game. 3 total pressures, 0 sacks.

If Carman performed a full season at LT like he did in the 3 playoff games (1 sack, 7 total pressures), he'd have ~6 sacks allowed, ~40 total pressures.
That's better than what Jonah did last year (12 sacks, 43 total pressures) and 2021 (8 sacks, 43 total pressures), but not a crazy improvement.


Let's not act though like Carman would be perfectly fine handling RT but Jonah wouldn't. Carman hasn't been playing RT either. We'd be looking for two LTs and an OG to transition (back) to RT. Ford hasn't done much at RT since 2019 when he allowed 8 sacks and 35 total pressures in 449 pass blocking snaps. Jonah Williams played 724 pass block snaps in the regular season last year.

Ultimately, we got a bunch of unproven and/or bad players for RT while Collins is on the mend.
Jonah - hasn't played RT since college
Carman - hasn't played RT
Ford - last played primarily RT in 2019
Adeniji - lol
Smith - more lol

With all of that said, I do think Pollack has confidence in RT between Carman, Ford, and Jonah, at least as a stopgap until Collins is back healthy.

this was all gut feelings and predictions based on weak data

you tried though

[*ochocincos*]

(04-10-2023, 05:00 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: this was all gut feelings and predictions based on weak data

you tried though

That's exactly what anyone is going off of, which is my point.
People have their opinions that because a player performed one way at Position X, they'll perform a certain way at RT.
The only way at this point that someone might have sufficient confidence in RT is with an early-round draft pick who has been playing RT.
But once again, it's speculation because you're going from college to NFL. It's not exactly apples to apples.

Personally, I'm ok giving Jonah a chance at RT.
However, I liked the pick back in 2019 and I thought he was ok prior to this year, so maybe I'm biased.
I also like the small sample set that Carman showed at LT, but he struggled at RG so I can't say with full confidence he'd be fine at RT. It could be a right side vs left side thing with him.
If the team wants to use a draft pick, that's up to them, but I would be surprised if they drafted someone while keeping Jonah this year after adding both Brown and Ford for OT.

[Frank Booth]

(04-10-2023, 05:07 PM)ochocincos Wrote: That's exactly what anyone is going off of, which is my point.
People have their opinions that because a player performed one way at Position X, they'll perform a certain way at RT.
The only way at this point that someone might have sufficient confidence in RT is with an early-round draft pick who has been playing RT.
But once again, it's speculation because you're going from college to NFL. It's not exactly apples to apples.

Personally, I'm ok giving Jonah a chance at RT.
However, I liked the pick back in 2019 and I thought he was ok prior to this year, so maybe I'm biased.
I also like the small sample set that Carman showed at LT, but he struggled at RG so I can't say with full confidence he'd be fine at RT. It could be a right side vs left side thing with him.
If the team wants to use a draft pick, that's up to them, but I would be surprised if they drafted someone while keeping Jonah this year after adding both Brown and Ford for OT.

there's no doubt in my mind Jonah wins the RT position. His whole scouting report was that he can play any position because he's smart and technically sound. He's going to be playing RT which doesnt require the exact same of level play as LT does(unless you have a left handed qb). He's already proven to be a league average/above average starting LT when healthy

Carmen barely has a resume of good play, and LC is what he is. A beaten up tackle who cant pass protect. Jonah is clearly the most qualified. I feel WAY more confident with Jonah at RT than LC or Carmen. And if the team was confident in Carmen or LC, that 12.6 million wouldve been freed up by now. But it's not

[007BengalsFan]

Jonah isnt a good LT, I dont know why people think switching him to RT is suddenly going to make him good at that position. I think the Bengals need to trade Jonah before the draft. If they wait until after the draft, those teams needing a LT will have probably addressed that need in the draft and Jonah will have little trade value. Get rid of him while you can, save the 12.6 million dollar cap space and pick up a draft pick that we can use this year to address other needs of the team.

[Eraserhead]

(04-10-2023, 05:15 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: there's no doubt in my mind Jonah wins the RT position. His whole scouting report was that he can play any position because he's smart and technically sound. He's going to be playing RT which doesnt require the exact same of level play as LT does(unless you have a left handed qb). He's already proven to be a league average/above average starting LT when healthy

How is this different than what you keep saying other people are doing? You're just using feelings and predictions too.

Quote:Carmen barely has a resume of good play, and LC is what he is. A beaten up tackle who cant pass protect. Jonah is clearly the most qualified. I feel WAY more confident with Jonah at RT than LC or Carmen. And if the team was confident in Carmen or LC, that 12.6 million wouldve been freed up by now. But it's not

They can't just free up that 12.6,, someone has to be willing to take it. 

[Frank Booth]

(04-10-2023, 08:37 PM)Eraserhead Wrote: How is this different than what you keep saying other people are doing? You're just using feelings and predictions too.


They can't just free up that 12.6,, someone has to be willing to take it. 

I state a fact and then give my opinion

"His whole scouting report was that he can play any position because he's smart and technically sound" - Fact


"]He's already proven to be a league average/above average starting LT when healthy" - Fact


"there's no doubt in my mind Jonah wins the RT position" - Opinion based on the facts at hand

[Eraserhead]

(04-10-2023, 09:09 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I state a fact and then give my opinion

"His whole scouting report was that he can play any position because he's smart and technically sound" - Fact


"]He's already proven to be a league average/above average starting LT when healthy" - Fact


"there's no doubt in my mind Jonah wins the RT position" - Opinion based on the facts at hand

None of that tells us anything about how he will look at RT in the NFL after 2 dislocated kneecaps. It's ALL opinion until we see him do it. 

[Frank Booth]

(04-10-2023, 09:24 PM)Eraserhead Wrote: None of that tells us anything about how he will look at RT in the NFL after 2 dislocated kneecaps. It's ALL opinion until we see him do it. 

it tells us he will more than likely be the best RT on the roster over Carmen and LC

the arguments for LC and Carmen are less logical

[Eraserhead]

(04-10-2023, 09:26 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: it tells us he will more than likely be the best RT on the roster over Carmen and LC

the arguments for LC and Carmen are less logical

That's nothing more than your opinion.

[wanga]

And that’s a fact

[Bengalbug]

(04-10-2023, 05:15 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: there's no doubt in my mind Jonah wins the RT position. His whole scouting report was that he can play any position because he's smart and technically sound. He's going to be playing RT which doesnt require the exact same of level play as LT does(unless you have a left handed qb). He's already proven to be a league average/above average starting LT when healthy

Carmen barely has a resume of good play, and LC is what he is. A beaten up tackle who cant pass protect. Jonah is clearly the most qualified. I feel WAY more confident with Jonah at RT than LC or Carmen. And if the team was confident in Carmen or LC, that 12.6 million wouldve been freed up by now. But it's not

LC is a beaten up T that can’t pass protect, but Jonah Williams… who has given up over 20 sacks the last two seasons is? Give me a break.

Hopefully between ford, collins, Carmen, Williams and maybe a Draft pick can step up.

I wouldn’t give anyone a leg up in that camp battle, but I am hopeful they get adequate plate from one of them.