The Mahomes Vs. Burrow Debate

[*PhilHos*]

(06-30-2023, 01:54 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I've never felt Lebron was all that close to Michael and i hate Michael. Lebron was/is a lot of hype, was/is bigger than most and played in a much softer era. 

rfaulk gets it. As a Knicks fan, I loooooooooooooooathed Michael Jordan, but I can't deny his greatness.

[KillerGoose]

(06-30-2023, 03:28 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No way is Lebron the GOAT. Yes, I hate the dude, but he's nowhere near the defensive player MJ was. MJ is clearly remembered for his scoring prowess but as someone who used to watch and root against him all the time, he was a great defender as well. Lebron is only a good defender if you considering flopping to be a legitimate defense.

That's why I am making the distinction. I think MJ had a better peak, but Lebron is just going to win out on longevity and how well he plays within it IMO. He is still an elite player as he approaches 40.  You're correct that LBJ is not as good of a defender, but he was still a defensive plus in his prime - especially in Miami. The thing with flopping is funny to me. He is incentivized to do it. He is plenty strong enough to get move through the contact as he goes to the rim, but why do that and potentially miss out on free throws? It is a game of math. He's a fine free throw shooter and exaggerating the contact scores his team more points. If anything, we as fans should have an issue with how the game is refereed and not the players that find the best strategy. 

Anyways, he is my personal GOAT. I think MJ had the highest prime we have ever seen. It's not something I am super passionate about, though. 

[*jason*]

(06-30-2023, 01:54 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I've never felt Lebron was all that close to Michael and i hate Michael. Lebron was/is a lot of hype, was/is bigger than most and played in a much softer era. 

I hate the way the game is played now, but LeBron is built like Karl Malone and plays like Scottie Pippen and Magic Johnson's love child. He'd have been excellent in any era.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Lebron was so blessed with his size and talent, cannot deny that. But I hate the dude. Always liked Michael Jordan as a
person, even when he beat my Trailblazers in the Finals with Clyde to Glyde back in the day. His swagger DOES remind
me of Burrow actually, but I understand the Point Guard references in the Glove and Stockton too.

[Whatever]

(06-30-2023, 05:06 PM)jason Wrote: I hate the way the game is played now, but LeBron is built like Karl Malone and plays like Scottie Pippen and Magic Johnson's love child. He'd have been excellent in any era.

LeBron would not have been able to cut it back then.  He is waaaaayyyy too weak, mentally.  He would be laughed out of the league for all of his blatant flops.  Not to mention guys like Magic, Jordan, and Bird all wanted to compete against each other to prove who was the best, not politic to assemble super team after super team.  LeBron also doesn't have the killer instinct those guys have, which was exposed by Kobe in the All Star game.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-30-2023, 05:52 PM)Whatever Wrote: LeBron would not have been able to cut it back then.  He is waaaaayyyy too weak, mentally.  He would be laughed out of the league for all of his blatant flops.  Not to mention guys like Magic, Jordan, and Bird all wanted to compete against each other to prove who was the best, not politic to assemble super team after super team.  LeBron also doesn't have the killer instinct those guys have, which was exposed by Kobe in the All Star game.

Back when i was rooting for Cleveland against GS i would get so frustrated when Lebron wouldn't play up to his size and he'd be shooting fade aways down low and not just bullying his way to the basket for layups. 

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Lebron is great, but he's playing against players in today's NBA and also playing against the ghosts of the NBA. I've never seen a player that's been compared to, or ranked with/against, more past players than any other player in any other sport.

There should be a painting showing the back of Lebron dribbling up to the half court line all alone against about 15-20 all-time greats from the past ready to play him on defense. George Gervin, Dr J, Larry Bird, Pete Maravich, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Elgin Baylor, John Stockton, Jerry West, Dominique Wilkins, Charles Barkley, Bernard King, James Worthy, Oscar Robertson, Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant, Clyde Drexler, John Havlicek, Kevin McHale, Isaiah Thomas . . . maybe sneak in Gary Payton, Alex English or Drazen Petrovich

[Bengalbug]

(06-30-2023, 03:28 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No way is Lebron the GOAT. Yes, I hate the dude, but he's nowhere near the defensive player MJ was. MJ is clearly remembered for his scoring prowess but as someone who used to watch and root against him all the time, he was a great defender as well. Lebron is only a good defender if you considering flopping to be a legitimate defense.

You must only remember the last few years of LeBron. LeBron is a 5x First Team All NBA defender.

I feel like people give Jordan the benefit of his entire career, and look at LeBron as the last few years. I think LeBron did that to himself. But if you are talking about LeBron over the last few years (on defense) we should talk about Jordan’s Washington stint.

Anyway, it’s close. LeBron would have been great in any era.

[Soonerpeace]

Lebron is not the GOAT but he’s in the top 3.

[Housh]

(06-30-2023, 10:39 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Back when i was rooting for Cleveland against GS i would get so frustrated when Lebron wouldn't play up to his size and he'd be shooting fade aways down low and not just bullying his way to the basket for layups. 

Well because GS would build a wall against him with Andre Iggy as the main defender. He simply HAD to shoot those shots. There are very infamous pictures of 4 guys shading to LeBron.

How is he gonna get to the paint being guarded by Iggy, Steph and Green shading over AND Zaza P. Just parking his big ass in the paint waiting to foul

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-01-2023, 11:23 AM)Housh Wrote: Well because GS would build a wall against him with Andre Iggy as the main defender. He simply HAD to shoot those shots. There are very infamous pictures of 4 guys shading to LeBron.

How is he gonna get to the paint being guarded by Iggy, Steph and Green shading over AND Zaza P. Just parking his big ass in the paint waiting to foul

I saw multiple fade aways after he had worked himself into the block, while he was one on one. I'm sure i'm being a bit tough in that instance when you consider me seeing it a couple times a game when compared to all the plays. Plus, i just did.not.like. the Warriors and it was frustrating to watch the Cavs lose to them.

[*rfaulk34*]

I'd put Lebron on the Mt. Rushmore of NBA players, no question. That said, Jordan just had the killerest of killer instincts. 6-0 in the finals, he just refused to lose and left a swath of torn out hearts across the country. Kobe is the only other guy that had that kind of intensity and will to win, though he did lose 2 finals. Lebron is 4-6 in the finals and simply doesn't have that air of invincibility and will to rip your heart out.

There is no shred of bias for me. The very top of my list of players hated is MJ. It all started as soon as he made that shot against Georgetown in the natty. From then it was PE#1. My late son was a huge Lebron fan and i've supported him over the years on the Heat and Cavs. I just think it's not even a question that MJ was better and more GOAT-worthy.

As far as my favorite player of all time? Dr. J with a bullet.

[KillerGoose]

(06-30-2023, 05:52 PM)Whatever Wrote: LeBron would not have been able to cut it back then.  He is waaaaayyyy too weak, mentally.  He would be laughed out of the league for all of his blatant flops.  Not to mention guys like Magic, Jordan, and Bird all wanted to compete against each other to prove who was the best, not politic to assemble super team after super team.  LeBron also doesn't have the killer instinct those guys have, which was exposed by Kobe in the All Star game.

This is silly. Lebron is 6'8 and 250-ish pounds with a rare level of athleticism, even for NBA players. He would have been fantastic back then. He flops because it is advantageous for him. It gets him to the line more often. That's why NBA players do it in the first place. It's a product of the rules & officiating, the players just utilize it. If you put him into a league where that isn't incentivized, he starts muscling through people. Miami Lebron, specifically, would dominate. He was rumored to be as heavy as 275 giving you All-NBA defense, 27 PPG on top of the league efficiency and providing top 10 assist production. That guy is successful in any era.

[*bfine32*]

As it's the off-season I'll chime in on the NBA debate. I think many "dislike" Labron is because of a general dislike for the NBA bringing politics into the game.



I get similar protests were done in each sport but no "Team Sport" is more individualized than Baseketball.
LaBron James IMO is one of the best players to lace them up and would have thrived in any generation

[Whatever]

(07-01-2023, 12:11 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: This is silly. Lebron is 6'8 and 250-ish pounds with a rare level of athleticism, even for NBA players. He would have been fantastic back then. He flops because it is advantageous for him. It gets him to the line more often. That's why NBA players do it in the first place. It's a product of the rules & officiating, the players just utilize it. If you put him into a league where that isn't incentivized, he starts muscling through people. Miami Lebron, specifically, would dominate. He was rumored to be as heavy as 275 giving you All-NBA defense, 27 PPG on top of the league efficiency and providing top 10 assist production. That guy is successful in any era.

LeBron certainly has the physical tools for any era.  However, he is still mentally weak and that would handcuff him in any era except today's ultra soft NBA where he's made it accepted practice to try and put a super team around him to prop him up after chokes again and again.  Could he play?  Yeah.  Could he be an All Star?  Probably.  Would he be anywhere near the GoaT debate?  No.  His best bet would be getting drafted somewhere where he can be a #2 guy.

[Whatever]

(07-01-2023, 12:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As it's the off-season I'll chime in on the NBA debate. I think many "dislike" Labron is because of a general dislike for the NBA bringing politics into the game.



I get similar protests were done in each sport but no "Team Sport" is more individualized than Baseketball.
LaBron James IMO is one of the best players to lace them up and would have thrived in any generation

This is why I don't care for LeBron...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PKMeeOFSZAw&pp=ygUqbGVicm9uIHZzIGtvYmUgYWxsIHN0YXIgZ2FtZSB0YWtlIHRoZSBzaG90

Back in the day, guys like Bird would literally tell the other team where they were going to get it and that they were going to shoot it in their face.  LeBron, the self proclaimed GoaT, won't even man up for the final shot in a meaningless All Star game that's just there for fan entertainment.

[KillerGoose]

(07-01-2023, 02:02 PM)Whatever Wrote: LeBron certainly has the physical tools for any era.  However, he is still mentally weak and that would handcuff him in any era except today's ultra soft NBA where he's made it accepted practice to try and put a super team around him to prop him up after chokes again and again.  Could he play?  Yeah.  Could he be an All Star?  Probably.  Would he be anywhere near the GoaT debate?  No.  His best bet would be getting drafted somewhere where he can be a #2 guy.

While we are still far apart in our assessment, at least you have become more reasonable with your take. We have gone from "He would get laughed out of the league" to "He would be an All-Star". We are at least moving back into the realm of reality. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Agree with Whatever, Lebron is probably the most gifted athlete of all time but is mentally soft.

You cannot say that about any of the other greats in Jordan, Wilt, Oscar, Larry, Magic etc.

This is why Burrow is great as well, he is very strong mentally.

[Bengalbug]

(07-01-2023, 11:59 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'd put Lebron on the Mt. Rushmore of NBA players, no question. That said, Jordan just had the killerest of killer instincts. 6-0 in the finals, he just refused to lose and left a swath of torn out hearts across the country. Kobe is the only other guy that had that kind of intensity and will to win, though he did lose 2 finals. Lebron is 4-6 in the finals and simply doesn't have that air of invincibility and will to rip your heart out.

There is no shred of bias for me. The very top of my list of players hated is MJ. It all started as soon as he made that shot against Georgetown in the natty. From then it was PE#1. My late son was a huge Lebron fan and i've supported him over the years on the Heat and Cavs. I just think it's not even a question that MJ was better and more GOAT-worthy.

As far as my favorite player of all time? Dr. J with a bullet.

The only finals that he lost, and should have won, was Miami against the Mavs.

The 07 Cavs team, outside of LeBron was a joke. Going up against the #2 def, and potentially 3 HOF players.

In 14, LeBron led scoring in 4/5 games. He scored 51 points more than the second closest player from either team. He also led his team in rebounds and assists. 28/8/4

In 15, LeBron lost Kyrie and Love. He should have been finals MVP, in a losing effort, with arguably the best finals performance of all time. 36/13/9
He scored 60 more points than Steph (number 2), 15 more assists than Steph (number 2) and had more rebounds than Tristan Thomson (number 2). It was legendary.

He then lost to what may be the best team ever assembled (for this era of basketball), the next two.

I used to love LeBron, I’m tired of him, and at some point will be able to look back and reflect on what he accomplished. But Jordan never even sniffed a finals without pippen. I still put Jordan one, but it’s very close.

[Bengalbug]

(07-01-2023, 03:07 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Agree with Whatever, Lebron is probably the most gifted athlete of all time but is mentally soft.

You cannot say that about any of the other greats in Jordan, Wilt, Oscar, Larry, Magic etc.

This is why Burrow is great as well, he is very strong mentally.

I don’t get this take. He started flopping so that he started getting calls. The dude would get murdered in the paint but was able to power through it and would never get a call.

How is he soft?