Why didn't the Bengals add a proven RB in the offseason

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-24-2023, 10:12 PM)TheFan Wrote: Yea, I mean 0.1 is hardly statically significant. 

But weeks 1-8 he averaged 3.3 ypc with 1 yard after contact
And weeks 9-17 he averaged 5.1 ypc with 2.5 yards after contact

That's a pretty big difference. I don't think Mixon is a top 5 back but I don't think he's a bottom 5 back either like some act. We know he was battling an ankle injury during the early part of the year and it's just as much on the coaches as it is him for them continually running him out there to subpar results when injured.

It doesn't need to be significant. You all were talking about Mixon's yards after contact as if he were getting hit much earlier in 2022 than he was in 2021, not letting him build up a head of steam so he couldn't get any yards after contact. So ANY amount more is significant because it shows he wasn't getting hit earlier in 2022, but later. He had *more* steam in 2022 and still got less yards after contact.

Weeks 10-17 he averaged 3.9 YPC. Anytime you include that Carolina game in a 6 game sample size, it's going to horribly skew it. That's why I was using a whole season vs a whole season, because even with the Carolina game he was still worse.

[Bengalbug]

Mixon had 419 touches in 2021, 359 being rushes. I know he didn’t touch 390 rushes, but this is interesting.

“All players with 390 or more carries, no matter how these carries were split between the regular season and the postseason, averaged a 33 percent drop in total yards, and an 11 percent drop in yards per carry.”

Mixon in 2021 - 359 for 1467 @ 4.08 ypc. According to the stat above, 2022 could have resulted in 968 @ 3.6 (rushing only)

Mixon in 2022 - 977 @ 3.92 (rushing only)

Maybe Mixon was simply over used in 2021 and we paid the price in 2022. Usually the drop off continues, but Mixon is still relatively young and should have the best OL in front of him.

[Bilbo Saggins]

After this season is over we'll be able to see whether or not keeping Mixon was the right call. It's looking like it was not truth be told. They could've kept Perine and added Elliott. Or kept Perine and made a play at renting Jonathan Taylor. Or kept Perine and also made a play on Jamaal Williams. Mixon had two gun violence related incidents this offseason and now he's throwing a hissy fit about the media. I don't get it. Either they value character or they don't. It kind of sounds like Mixon's sister took the fall for shooting a gun in the general direction of neighborhood kids and he flat out got away with brandishing a gun in a fit of road rage. He's venturing into Antonio Brown levels of madness and we're counting on him to carry the load at RB for a(still) inflated amount of money for what he brings to the table. Well...OK. Shut me up once more please. 

[Bengalbug]

(08-25-2023, 04:32 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: After this season is over we'll be able to see whether or not keeping Mixon was the right call. It's looking like it was not truth be told. They could've kept Perine and added Elliott. Or kept Perine and made a play at renting Jonathan Taylor. Or kept Perine and also made a play on Jamaal Williams. Mixon had two gun violence related incidents this offseason and now he's throwing a hissy fit about the media. I don't get it. Either they value character or they don't. It kind of sounds like Mixon's sister took the fall for shooting a gun in the general direction of neighborhood kids and he flat out got away with brandishing a gun in a fit of road rage. He's venturing into Antonio Brown levels of madness and we're counting on him to carry the load at RB for a(still) inflated amount of money for what he brings to the table. Well...OK. Shut me up once more please. 

Joe Mixon is nothing close to AB .

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-24-2023, 07:10 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Well he was voted by his peers as the 5th best RB in the league by his peers just over a year ago. I think he’s still pretty good if his peers thought so a year ago.

That was one time during his entire career and he quickly returned to his usual unranked self. That’s what is known as an anomaly. He is arguably the third best RB in the AFC North.

Same list that has CeeDee Lamb ranked higher than Ja’Marr Chase at WR.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-24-2023, 01:09 PM)Whatever Wrote: Joe was tied for 35th out of 41 qualifying rushers last year in yards after contact, and a few of the guys behind him are actually QB's.  He is not a top RB anymore.  He simply can't break tackles, make guys miss, or even get the edge on outside runs anymore.  

I'm curious to know people's opinions for what makes a top (or even good) RB.
I'll bet I'll see similarities in responses, but I'd also bet there will be some differences in almost every answer.

[Soonerpeace]

(08-25-2023, 04:32 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: After this season is over we'll be able to see whether or not keeping Mixon was the right call. It's looking like it was not truth be told. They could've kept Perine and added Elliott. Or kept Perine and made a play at renting Jonathan Taylor. Or kept Perine and also made a play on Jamaal Williams. Mixon had two gun violence related incidents this offseason and now he's throwing a hissy fit about the media. I don't get it. Either they value character or they don't. It kind of sounds like Mixon's sister took the fall for shooting a gun in the general direction of neighborhood kids and he flat out got away with brandishing a gun in a fit of road rage. He's venturing into Antonio Brown levels of madness and we're counting on him to carry the load at RB for a(still) inflated amount of money for what he brings to the table. Well...OK. Shut me up once more please. 

Wasn’t happening not in a zillion years. Too much money 5 million dead cap and 5 million for Zeke for a third down back with Perine? Makes no sense.

[TheFan]

(08-25-2023, 01:33 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It doesn't need to be significant. You all were talking about Mixon's yards after contact as if he were getting hit much earlier in 2022 than he was in 2021, not letting him build up a head of steam so he couldn't get any yards after contact. So ANY amount more is significant because it shows he wasn't getting hit earlier in 2022, but later. He had *more* steam in 2022 and still got less yards after contact.

Weeks 10-17 he averaged 3.9 YPC. Anytime you include that Carolina game in a 6 game sample size, it's going to horribly skew it. That's why I was using a whole season vs a whole season, because even with the Carolina game he was still worse.

I think only 1 person mentioned 2021 vs 2022, which wasn't me, and it was about how little difference there was between the two years. Which is what you then also showed with the contact yards. 

My point was that our oline has been crap for years, especially run blocking, which is likely the largest part of the equation for our run game woes compared to all of our RBs being bums. 

Definitely fair on the Panthers game part though. I didn't realize in the moment that was in the latter half of stats and was just using the first 8 games vs last 8 games.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-24-2023, 07:10 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Well he was voted by his peers as the 5th best RB in the league by his peers just over a year ago. I think he’s still pretty good if his peers thought so a year ago.

And then he had a disappointing year, I thought Mixon would of been a top 5 RB last year and he was clearly not that.

Instead, he lacked urgency in hitting holes, lost his vision, balance and was bad in pass protection for all year and had 1 great 
game against the Panthers that inflated his numbers to make them not look so bad. We will see if he is more consistent this year
and he improves on all the things listed above but it is a little late in his career to learn new tricks.

[Soonerpeace]

(08-25-2023, 12:23 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: And then he had a disappointing year, I thought Mixon would of been a top 5 RB last year and he was clearly not that.

Instead, he lacked urgency in hitting holes, lost his vision, balance and was bad in pass protection for all year and had 1 great 
game against the Panthers that inflated his numbers to make them not look so bad. We will see if he is more consistent this year
and he improves on all the things listed above but it is a little late in his career to learn new tricks.

Zac disagrees. If you listen to this podcast and his pressers he’s been 100% behind Joe.

Solomon Wilcots “ I’m sitting in pubs and coffee houses and get questions all the time about Joe Mixon and I keep telling them he’s a rare find and opposing coaches tell me we wish we had him” Zac Taylor “ Joe’s so physical especially when he’s out in space. Even if these guys take him down they pay the price for it and eventually you see on film they don’t want to do it anymore. It’s kinda Like when he makes them miss or runs them over. When he gets on the perimeter he helps he helps Tee and Ja Mar by wearing down those guys guarding them by wearing them down. He’s a great leader and before the game the opposing coaches are moaning about going up against him. We like his efficiency and in the passing game we love his effectiveness.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(08-25-2023, 12:53 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Zac disagrees. If you listen to this podcast and his pressers he’s been 100% behind Joe.

Solomon Wilcots “ I’m sitting in pubs and coffee houses and get questions all the time about Joe Mixon and I keep telling them he’s a rare find and opposing coaches tell me we wish we had him” Zac Taylor “ Joe’s so physical especially when he’s out in space. Even if these guys take him down they pay the price for it and eventually you see on film they don’t want to do it anymore. It’s kinda Like when he makes them miss or runs them over. When he gets on the perimeter he helps he helps Tee and Ja Mar by wearing down those guys guarding them by wearing them down. He’s a great leader and before the game the opposing coaches are moaning about going up against him. We like his efficiency and in the passing game we love his effectiveness.

I give up on all of this.
Even if Mixon has a good/great year, people will still complain and want him gone/replaced etc, he's only one year removed from the Pro-Bowl and one of the best Pass Catching RB's out there.

In 2022, Mixon was top 25 (24th) in yards from scrimmage (which includes WR/RB/QB/TEs), Chase was 41st and Tee was 47th.
In 2021, Mixon was 8th, Chase 9th and Tee 39th.

Even though 2022 was a down year for everyone on that list, the TEAM still found a way to win and come with in a minute of going to a 2nd in a row SB.

I'm excited to see what both Joe's can do behind a better OL. 

[KillerGoose]

(08-25-2023, 01:08 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I give up on all of this.
Even if Mixon has a good/great year, people will still complain and want him gone/replaced etc, he's only one year removed from the Pro-Bowl and one of the best Pass Catching RB's out there. He's top 25 in yards from scrimmage (which includes WR/RB/QB/TEs), Chase was 41st and Tee was 47th.

I'm excited to see what both Joes can do behind a better OL. 

That's certainly not the case, and this mindset is part of the frustration of the whole topic. There is a blatant disconnect on what each fan or pundit considers "good". However, that doesn't mean that everyone is unreasonable and will still vilify Mixon if he has a great year. If Mixon has a good year, then I will happily say he has turned it around and he proved my doubts wrong. However, my idea of a good year is probably very different than yours.

Running backs are largely a product of their offensive line. One way of assessing how good a back is is to ask "what does he do for himself"? Is he a good pass blocker? Is a good receiver? Does he break tackles often and gets a ton of yards after contact? For Mixon, those three questions are two nos, and one yes. He does not, and has never, been very good at breaking tackles or generating yardage after contact. He is not, and never has been a remarkable pass blocker. He is a very talented receiver. 

Even his 2021 season is unremarkable. He had poor efficiency and very high volume - of course his yardage and TDs look good, he ran the ball a lot. He'd better have high numbers or there is a big issue. He had the second most carries within the five yard line in the league, reminiscent of Jamaal Williams of Detroit last year. He benefitted from a high octane passing offense that got down to the goalline where he punched it in. That isn't particularly impressive, in my eyes. 

If Mixon goes out there and starts breaking tackles and generating more production on his own, then I will be happy, even if his efficiency per touch is largely the same. That would be concerning to me, because that would mean the offensive line is probably not doing much, but it would show me that Mixon has some juice left. The issue is just that he has never done that. He has been one of the least elusive backs in the league over the last four years. Maybe he turns it around, I don't know. I would be happy if he did.

My stance isn't that I hate Mixon, though I have been an outspoken critic of his. He is simply replaceable and nothing special. I understand that the coaching staff wanted to keep him, but that doesn't really change my opinion in the least. 

[Soonerpeace]

(08-25-2023, 01:21 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: That's certainly not the case, and this mindset is part of the frustration of the whole topic. There is a blatant disconnect on what each fan or pundit considers "good". However, that doesn't mean that everyone is unreasonable and will still vilify Mixon if he has a great year. If Mixon has a good year, then I will happily say he has turned it around and he proved my doubts wrong. However, my idea of a good year is probably very different than yours.

Running backs are largely a product of their offensive line. One way of assessing how good a back is is to ask "what does he do for himself"? Is he a good pass blocker? Is a good receiver? Does he break tackles often and gets a ton of yards after contact? For Mixon, those three questions are two nos, and one yes. He does not, and has never, been very good at breaking tackles or generating yardage after contact. He is not, and never has been a remarkable pass blocker. He is a very talented receiver. 

Even his 2021 season is unremarkable. He had poor efficiency and very high volume - of course his yardage and TDs look good, he ran the ball a lot. He'd better have high numbers or there is a big issue. He had the second most carries within the five yard line in the league, reminiscent of Jamaal Williams of Detroit last year. He benefitted from a high octane passing offense that got down to the goalline where he punched it in. That isn't particularly impressive, in my eyes. 

If Mixon goes out there and starts breaking tackles and generating more production on his own, then I will be happy, even if his efficiency per touch is largely the same. That would be concerning to me, because that would mean the offensive line is probably not doing much, but it would show me that Mixon has some juice left. The issue is just that he has never done that. He has been one of the least elusive backs in the league over the last four years. Maybe he turns it around, I don't know. I would be happy if he did.

My stance isn't that I hate Mixon, though I have been an outspoken critic of his. He is simply replaceable and nothing special. I understand that the coaching staff wanted to keep him, but that doesn't really change my opinion in the least. 

That’s a solid and reasonable response. Mixon had a solid year in ‘21. He got voted to the Pro Bowl and selected by his peers as the fifth best running back. ‘22 he did very well in the passing game. He struggled running the ball and most would behind the 27th best OL. We know the coaches and players want to win. We know there’s numerous voices in the room between, Callahan, Taylor, Pollack, and Justin Hill. Then you’ve got Duke Tobin seeing Joe’s price tag. They watch the video. They see his performance and I just don’t believe he’s some sacred cow. The players want to win and they know who’s cutting it and who’s not.

But I’m with Mike M …. the confirmation bias despite the organization’s directive is an interesting dynamic.

[Soonerpeace]

Pollack has noticed a new energy and approach from Mixon in training camp this year. In fact, he's been so pleased with what he’s been seeing from the run game in training camp that it gives him chills when he talks about it.

“He’s been outstanding at understanding our angles of departure and what we are trying to do from blocking schemes up front to be able to attack where the holes are going to be even faster,” Pollack said. “It actually happens because we leave the first level or the second level fit, he’s already cutting off that second level block and it's been really good and exciting to see. In fact I was talking to Justin the other day and getting goosebumps talking about it. It’s been really well oiled so far in practice and we have to obviously carry that into the season when teams give us different looks.”

Mixon and the offensive line held their own player meetings last year as they tried to get on the same page. Heading into the 2023 season the 27-year old has even stronger bonds with the big guys up front.

“I’m a very big fan of Cordell Volson,” Mixon said. I just love everything about him. He filled in a big void last year and just since day one he’s been a pro. Since day one, he walked in and he always looks to get better. He’s always picking Ted (Karras) and Alex Cappa’s ear and just the relationship that me and him have together is a great thing.”

[*ochocincos*]

(08-25-2023, 10:28 AM)TheFan Wrote: I think only 1 person mentioned 2021 vs 2022, which wasn't me, and it was about how little difference there was between the two years. Which is what you then also showed with the contact yards. 

My point was that our oline has been crap for years, especially run blocking, which is likely the largest part of the equation for our run game woes compared to all of our RBs being bums. 

Definitely fair on the Panthers game part though. I didn't realize in the moment that was in the latter half of stats and was just using the first 8 games vs last 8 games.

It was me that mentioned it, and I was pointing strictly to yards per touch.
YPT was actually 0.1 higher in 2022.
YPC was down only by 0.2 from 2021.

Personally, I don't care how a RB (or any player) gets yards and TDs. Just that they get them.
The more you get, the better you are considered to be by many fans.

Maybe that means I'm less knowledgeable about what makes a good player, but what I mostly care about are stats.
Could be that it was fantasy football that really got me into football though.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-25-2023, 12:53 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Zac disagrees. If you listen to this podcast and his pressers he’s been 100% behind Joe.

Solomon Wilcots “ I’m sitting in pubs and coffee houses and get questions all the time about Joe Mixon and I keep telling them he’s a rare find and opposing coaches tell me we wish we had him” Zac Taylor “ Joe’s so physical especially when he’s out in space. Even if these guys take him down they pay the price for it and eventually you see on film they don’t want to do it anymore. It’s kinda Like when he makes them miss or runs them over. When he gets on the perimeter he helps he helps Tee and Ja Mar by wearing down those guys guarding them by wearing them down. He’s a great leader and before the game the opposing coaches are moaning about going up against him. We like his efficiency and in the passing game we love his effectiveness.

It is true Mixon is physical out in space and he does like to punish those who try and tackle him. He is a great pass catcher and
is very good with ball security. He also does wear down Defenders. I will agree with these things that Zac said.

The problems with Mixon are not these things on the field. It is poor pass protection, poor vision, lack of being able to break 
tackles, poor balance and and lack of top end speed to finish big runs with TD's.

(08-25-2023, 01:08 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I give up on all of this.
Even if Mixon has a good/great year, people will still complain and want him gone/replaced etc, he's only one year removed from the Pro-Bowl and one of the best Pass Catching RB's out there.

In 2022, Mixon was top 25 (24th) in yards from scrimmage (which includes WR/RB/QB/TEs), Chase was 41st and Tee was 47th.
In 2021, Mixon was 8th, Chase 9th and Tee 39th.

Even though 2022 was a down year for everyone on that list, the TEAM still found a way to win and come with in a minute of going to a 2nd in a row SB.

I'm excited to see what both Joe's can do behind a better OL. 

I won't be complaining or wanting Mixon gone if he has a great year and you can count on that.

(08-25-2023, 01:21 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: That's certainly not the case, and this mindset is part of the frustration of the whole topic. There is a blatant disconnect on what each fan or pundit considers "good". However, that doesn't mean that everyone is unreasonable and will still vilify Mixon if he has a great year. If Mixon has a good year, then I will happily say he has turned it around and he proved my doubts wrong. However, my idea of a good year is probably very different than yours.

Running backs are largely a product of their offensive line. One way of assessing how good a back is is to ask "what does he do for himself"? Is he a good pass blocker? Is a good receiver? Does he break tackles often and gets a ton of yards after contact? For Mixon, those three questions are two nos, and one yes. He does not, and has never, been very good at breaking tackles or generating yardage after contact. He is not, and never has been a remarkable pass blocker. He is a very talented receiver. 

Even his 2021 season is unremarkable. He had poor efficiency and very high volume - of course his yardage and TDs look good, he ran the ball a lot. He'd better have high numbers or there is a big issue. He had the second most carries within the five yard line in the league, reminiscent of Jamaal Williams of Detroit last year. He benefitted from a high octane passing offense that got down to the goalline where he punched it in. That isn't particularly impressive, in my eyes. 

If Mixon goes out there and starts breaking tackles and generating more production on his own, then I will be happy, even if his efficiency per touch is largely the same. That would be concerning to me, because that would mean the offensive line is probably not doing much, but it would show me that Mixon has some juice left. The issue is just that he has never done that. He has been one of the least elusive backs in the league over the last four years. Maybe he turns it around, I don't know. I would be happy if he did.

My stance isn't that I hate Mixon, though I have been an outspoken critic of his. He is simply replaceable and nothing special. I understand that the coaching staff wanted to keep him, but that doesn't really change my opinion in the least. 

Great post. Same way I feel KillerGoose. Reps.

[Bilbo Saggins]

(08-25-2023, 08:06 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Joe Mixon is nothing close to AB .

One could argue that pointing guns at unarmed women and/or firing guns in the direction of children is worse than anything that AB has ever done.  If he can't control himself, he should hang up his cleats and stop getting hit in the head for money.  My 2 cents.  I've criticized umpteen Steelers/Ravens players who weren't in control of themselves or were bad people.  I'm trying to stay consistent.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-25-2023, 01:35 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: That’s a solid and reasonable response. Mixon had a solid year in ‘21. He got voted to the Pro Bowl and selected by his peers as the fifth best running back. ‘22 he did very well in the passing game. He struggled running the ball and most would behind the 27th best OL. We know the coaches and players want to win. We know there’s numerous voices in the room between, Callahan, Taylor, Pollack, and Justin Hill. Then you’ve got Duke Tobin seeing Joe’s price tag. They watch the video. They see his performance and I just don’t believe he’s some sacred cow. The players want to win and they know who’s cutting it and who’s not.

But I’m with Mike M …. the confirmation bias despite the organization’s directive is an interesting dynamic.

The organization almost released him which has yet to penetrate your Oklahoma confirmational bias.

[TheFan]

(08-26-2023, 10:07 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The organization almost released him which has yet to penetrate your Oklahoma confirmational bias.

The Bengals could have easily cut him with his salary being what it was plus the off field things. They chose to work with him to lower his salary so he could stay in a way that was fair for him and them. I think it's much more of an indicator how much they like him compared to them wanting him gone. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(08-25-2023, 07:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: It is true Mixon is physical out in space and he does like to punish those who try and tackle him. He is a great pass catcher and
is very good with ball security. He also does wear down Defenders. I will agree with these things that Zac said.

The problems with Mixon are not these things on the field. It is poor pass protection, poor vision, lack of being able to break 
tackles, poor balance and and lack of top end speed to finish big runs with TD's.

Bingo, I'd only add thinking he's L. Bell and trying to dance and wait in the backfield. He doesn't have the quickness to pull that off. 

He's a hit the hole hard and take what you can get kinda runner. But fails to realize it. He tries to hit home run on every carry, but doesn't have the top end speed to hit HR's. 

Take the four yards and STFU, Joe