The OL Thread

[Shake n Blake]

(09-27-2023, 02:24 PM)Wyche Wrote: After three weeks, Joe was sacked 15 times in 2022.

After three weeks this year with a bum leg and the bad overall team performance in Cleveland....5 sacks.

Exactly, and without looking, we've probably passed a little more through 3 games this year.

They're better than they were last year, and if they tighten up as the season rolls on again, this could be a good group.

(09-27-2023, 02:33 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I agree. And I think another part of the equation is that Donald is a 1st ballot HOFer...but the rest of the Rams defensive line...isn't that great. It's certainly nowhere near it's level during the SB.

And their offense has Stafford who is good, and a promising rookie WR...but they're a shell of their former selves as a team. They traded draft picks for players and paid guys heavily...and it won them a SB, but they paid the price. And we're seeing that.

They're a bottom 10-12 team in the NFL.

I agree that the Rams aren't what they once were. I don't think they've reached cupcake status, though. This win kept us from an 0-3 start, which I feel would've tanked our season, but I wouldn't say this win moved the needle much on my hopes. 

This win just pushed the panic button back some.

I'm still very worried about a lot of things. Primarily Joe's leg. I still feel we have a good overall team, but a good team with a bad QB is usually going to be a 7-10 type of team, at best.

When is our BYE?

[Whacked]

(09-27-2023, 03:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Could be another mismatch in Trey Hendrickson's favor...

Let’s hope so!!

[Whacked]

(09-27-2023, 03:54 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: When is our BYE?

10/22

Great Profile pic - ditto here man.

[KillerGoose]

(09-27-2023, 03:54 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Exactly, and without looking, we've probably passed a little more through 3 games this year.

I went ahead and looked for you - it is close. Through the first three weeks this year, Joe Burrow has dropped back 127 times and has been sacked five times, or every 25 dropbacks. Through the first three weeks of last season, Burrow dropped back 149 times and was sacked 15 times, or every 10 dropbacks. 

There is some extra context, like Burrow having a time to throw of 2.6 seconds and average depth of target of 7.6 compared to 2.3 and 7.1 this year, but that is not enough to explain that big of a discrepancy. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-27-2023, 02:24 PM)Wyche Wrote: After three weeks, Joe was sacked 15 times in 2022.

After three weeks this year with a bum leg and the bad overall team performance in Cleveland....5 sacks.

Yes, the OL has improved with Brown, but also...

2021: 6.4 Air Yards per Completion
2022: 5.6 Air Yards per Completion
2023: 3.5 Air Yards per Completion

2021: 2.69 Time To Throw
2022: 2.55 Time To Throw
2023: 2.49 Time To Throw

The passes are SO short and SO quick that it's hard to tell how good the OL would be if we were operating an actual NFL offense.

%-wise, the difference between 2.49 and 2.69 would be like the difference on the 40 yard dash between someone with 4.40 speed and 4.75 speed. Huge.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-27-2023, 05:55 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yes, the OL has improved with Brown, but also...

2021: 6.4 Air Yards per Completion
2022: 5.6 Air Yards per Completion
2023: 3.5 Air Yards per Completion

2021: 2.69 Time To Throw
2022: 2.55 Time To Throw
2023: 2.49 Time To Throw

The passes are SO short and SO quick that it's hard to tell how good the OL would be if we were operating an actual NFL offense.

I was just about to go get all this data and post, so thank you for doing it already :)

Burrow would be getting sacked more if he they were calling plays with deeper, longer-developing routes and he had to hold onto the ball longer.

At the end of the day, the sacks might be down, but the offensive production is also (way) down.

Selfishly, I'd take more sacks if it meant a more high-powered offense lol.

[TKUHL]

Was reading an article that said Jonah Williams played a perfect game against the Rams. Can anyone confirm this?

[KillerGoose]

(09-27-2023, 06:43 PM)TKUHL Wrote: Was reading an article that said Jonah Williams played a perfect game against the Rams. Can anyone confirm this?

Yes, he did. He didn't allow any pressures or sacks. 

[BurrowTheGoat]

https://x.com/Cincy_Suave2/status/1707123379881316637?s=20

^ This guy logged all of Volson's snaps and has a much better outlook on his performance than PFF. I don't trust PFF for OL grades they have Orlando Brown Jr in the 50s and he has looked awesome.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-27-2023, 02:28 PM)jj22 Wrote: I haven't read through the thread so maybe it was mentioned but one great thing about the Oline even as bad as they've been under Zac is the lack of presnap penalties.

That was something they struggled with against the Rams. Something they've been relatively good at.

The whole team is good about not getting penalties.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-27-2023, 09:56 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: The whole team is good about not getting penalties.

Boyd’s was unforgivable. That should never happen with a WR.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-27-2023, 09:58 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Boyd’s was unforgivable. That should never happen with a WR.

Agreed. It was just a little flinch, but they don't even go off cadence. Mixon's was bad too.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-27-2023, 05:18 PM)Whacked Wrote: 10/22

Great Profile pic - ditto here man.

Thanks and thanks! God Bless you.

(09-27-2023, 05:24 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I went ahead and looked for you - it is close. Through the first three weeks this year, Joe Burrow has dropped back 127 times and has been sacked five times, or every 25 dropbacks. Through the first three weeks of last season, Burrow dropped back 149 times and was sacked 15 times, or every 10 dropbacks. 

There is some extra context, like Burrow having a time to throw of 2.6 seconds and average depth of target of 7.6 compared to 2.3 and 7.1 this year, but that is not enough to explain that big of a discrepancy. 

Appreciate you looking up the stats. The attempts are closer than I thought, but I agree that I wouldn't attribute ALL of that improvement to the neutered passing game. 

I have to be honest here, it definitely makes it harder to give the line props or to make a concrete stance, but a bad line would give up more than 5 sacks even with a quicker and shorter pass game.

After all, it's not like every throw is snap, toss.

(09-27-2023, 05:58 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I was just about to go get all this data and post, so thank you for doing it already :)

Burrow would be getting sacked more if he they were calling plays with deeper, longer-developing routes and he had to hold onto the ball longer.

At the end of the day, the sacks might be down, but the offensive production is also (way) down.

Selfishly, I'd take more sacks if it meant a more high-powered offense lol.

I agree, but let's hope the sacks go up by the amount they reasonably should. Not a throwback to 2021. 

Just because we will open up the offense more later doesn't mean we should assume regular 7 sack games are on the horizon. 

Not necessarily saying that's what you were saying.

[*Go Cards*]

(09-27-2023, 01:17 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The bigger point that I was touching on is that there is no "singular reason" for 26/49 and 4 drives ending in FGs that could or should have been TD drives.  Joe's mobility issue is a factor, the OL allowing pressure on 20% of drop backs is a factor, whatever is going on with Tee Higgins is definitely a factor, and let's not forget that the Rams secondary isn't too awful either, so yet another factor.

Yep the secondary caused Joe to just throw away several passes. 

Not saying Joe is right yet but still. 

[*ochocincos*]

(09-28-2023, 03:13 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I agree, but let's hope the sacks go up by the amount they reasonably should. Not a throwback to 2021. 

Just because we will open up the offense more later doesn't mean we should assume regular 7 sack games are on the horizon. 

Not necessarily saying that's what you were saying.

Bingo. That's not what I was meaning to imply.

But I'll be ok with an extra sack (or even two) a game if we're seeing 300+ yards passing on 40+ pass attempts.

Right now, Burrow is averaging 187 yards passing a game, but that's predominantly because of the stinky 82 yards passing against CLE.
Even if you take out that game, he's averaged 240 passing YPG across the other two games.

A big problem for him is the extremely uncharacteristic 55% completion.
Offense would have been churning a lot better if he was closer to his career average of 67%.
And also taking some deeper shots this whole time.

[Joelist]

Once Joe's calf is far enough along for him to be able to push off in his throwing motion correctly the scoring will jump. Even in the Rams game he missed a couple of throws he usually makes both of which were likely TD throws. Right now they just need to win however ugly until Burrow is back to being himself. Beat the titans and we're back to 2-2. Yes we're still in gaol for tiebreakers but first things first - get the W-L record stabilized.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-28-2023, 10:04 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Bingo. That's not what I was meaning to imply.

But I'll be ok with an extra sack (or even two) a game if we're seeing 300+ yards passing on 40+ pass attempts.

Right now, Burrow is averaging 187 yards passing a game, but that's predominantly because of the stinky 82 yards passing against CLE.
Even if you take out that game, he's averaged 240 passing YPG across the other two games.

A big problem for him is the extremely uncharacteristic 55% completion.
Offense would have been churning a lot better if he was closer to his career average of 67%.
And also taking some deeper shots this whole time.

100% agree, buddy. Low sack numbers are nice, but not at the expense of nerfing the offense. 

If we're around 40 sacks and the pass offense is what it was in 2021 or 2022, that's fine. 

In fact, I'd expect a moderate amount of sacks just due to the nature of the offense, no matter how good the o-line is.

(09-28-2023, 01:39 PM)Joelist Wrote: Once Joe's calf is far enough along for him to be able to push off in his throwing motion correctly the scoring will jump. Even in the Rams game he missed a couple of throws he usually makes both of which were likely TD throws. Right now they just need to win however ugly until Burrow is back to being himself. Beat the titans and we're back to 2-2. Yes we're still in gaol for tiebreakers but first things first - get the W-L record stabilized.

This is what it all boils down to. I feel like people are looking to play the blame game just to vent because the season is off to a disappointing start.

That said, if Joe was 100%, we're probably 2-1 at worst right now and fewer things would be questioned right now.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-28-2023, 01:39 PM)Joelist Wrote: Once Joe's calf is far enough along for him to be able to push off in his throwing motion correctly the scoring will jump. Even in the Rams game he missed a couple of throws he usually makes both of which were likely TD throws. Right now they just need to win however ugly until Burrow is back to being himself. Beat the titans and we're back to 2-2. Yes we're still in goal for tiebreakers but first things first - get the W-L record stabilized.

Nice post Joelist. Spot on with everything you say here.

[Housh]

(09-27-2023, 06:43 PM)TKUHL Wrote: Was reading an article that said Jonah Williams played a perfect game against the Rams. Can anyone confirm this?

PFF had him at a 100 rating i thought


It’s almost like Myles Garrett is a good playe r

[Housh]

(09-28-2023, 10:04 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Bingo. That's not what I was meaning to imply.

But I'll be ok with an extra sack (or even two) a game if we're seeing 300+ yards passing on 40+ pass attempts.

Right now, Burrow is averaging 187 yards passing a game, but that's predominantly because of the stinky 82 yards passing against CLE.
Even if you take out that game, he's averaged 240 passing YPG across the other two games.

A big problem for him is the extremely uncharacteristic 55% completion.
Offense would have been churning a lot better if he was closer to his career average of 67%.
And also taking some deeper shots this whole time.

Yeah but no way he could be around that with the offense we are running

The reason his completion % is usually so high is one, our WRs just are really good and barely drop passes and two because everyone is so afraid of the deep ball they conceded short. Now teams know Burrow can’t go deep everyone is sitting on short routes. One of these games we are dropping 50 and i truly believe that.