We have leader for RT in free agency....

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

FWIW, PFF ranks for the last two OT classes:

2023:
#6: Paris Johnson, Cardinals: 60.1
#9: Darnell Wright, Bears: 62.4
#10: Peter Skoronski: 61.6 (at G)
#14: Broderick Jones, Steelers: 60.7
#27: Anton Harrison, Jags: 53.0
------------
#65: Tyler Steen, Philly: 53.2 (at G, 71 snaps)
#92: Wanya Morris, KC: 54.6
#103: Nick Saldiveri, NO: 52.1 (at G, 18 snaps)
#106: Blake Freeland, Colts: 44.2
#111: Dawand Jones, Browns: 64.7

While I am firmly against paying big for a mediocre OT in FA, the idea that some rookie OT is gonna blow our doors off year 1 seems unlikely. The best graded guy was Rd4.

But maybe it was a 1 yearcthing and a bad tackle class? Let's go back two:

#6: Ikem Ekwonu, Carolina: 65.3, 67.4
#7: Evan Neal, NYG: 44.1, 39.8
#9: Charles Cross, Seattle: 63.7, 67.6
#19: Trevor Penning, NO: 73.6 (124 snaps), 53.6
#24: Tyler Smith, Dallas: 71.4, 72.9 (at G, Pro Bowl)

That class did better, but mid 60s is about as good as it gets. Smith was 70's at G.

Jonah's first two look steller by comparison. The last two, not so much. Though the injury in '22 and switching sides mitigate it somewhat.

But I have to say, I suspect rooks killing it is the exception rather than the rule. Especially in the trenches.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

For gits and shiggles the top 18 from last year:

1. Young, QB, Carolina: 56.0
2. Stroud, QB, Houston: 82.8
3. Anderson: Edge, Houston: 81.8
4. Richardson, QB: Colts: 52.2
5. Witherspoon, CB, Seattle: 84.1
6. Johnson, OT, Cardinals: 60.1
7. Wilson, DE/Edge, Raiders: 47.1
8. Robinson, RB, Falcons: 69.1
9. Carter, DE, Eagles: 89.0
10. Wright, OT, Bears: 62.4
11. Skoronski, OG: Titans: 61.6
12. Gibbs, RB, Lions: 74.5
13. Van Ness, DE, GB: 64.0
14. Jones, OT, Steelers: 60.7
15. McDonald, Edge, Jets: 71.6
16. Forbes, CB, Washington: 50.9
17. Gonzalez, CB, NE: 80.8
18. Campbell, LB, Lions: 57.3
19: Kancey, DT, Bucs: 46.6

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Sure looks like Eluemunor wants to play here with his praise of Burrow and Willie. Would be all for it. I also like a few more OT's in
FA to play RT in Trent Brown and Onwenu. Would rather have a proven vet and Draft a RT for the future than be depending on a rookie
this year, they usually don't pan out for a couple years if ever as we have seen. Jonah wasn't terrible here but he also hasn't lived up
to his draft status either in my opinion. I don't trust Duke/Pollack in drafting OL.

[BFritz21]

(02-12-2024, 06:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sure looks like Eluemunor wants to play here with his praise of Burrow and Willie. Would be all for it. I also like a few more OT's in
FA to play RT in Trent Brown and Onwenu. Would rather have a proven vet and Draft a RT for the future than be depending on a rookie
this year, they usually don't pan out for a couple years if ever as we have seen. Jonah wasn't terrible here but he also hasn't lived up
to his draft status either in my opinion. I don't trust Duke/Pollack in drafting OL.

Even if we all, draft experts included, agree that Eluemunor should be the pick, I don't trust Pollack not to ruin him, much-less coach him to perform like a first round draft pick.

Even if Pollack's job was to "not ruin him," I'm not sure I'd trust Pollack.

I guess we don't have much of a choice at this point though.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-12-2024, 06:28 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Even if we all, draft experts included, agree that Eluemunor should be the pick, I don't trust Pollack not to ruin him, much-less coach him to perform like a first round draft pick.

Even if Pollack's job was to "not ruin him," I'm not sure I'd trust Pollack.

I guess we don't have much of a choice at this point though.

Yeah, sounds like Pollack is sticking around as much as a mistake as it is in keeping him.

Proven vets shouldn't regress going to another team. Cappa and Orlando Brown most notably haven't been as good here as they were in 
Tampa and Kansas City. This is a sign of bad coaching, along with the lack of growth in the young players in Volson and especially Carman.

All we can do is hope we add a vet RT like Eluemunor or the others I mentioned and hope Pollack improves in his coaching.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-12-2024, 06:37 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, sounds like Pollack is sticking around as much as a mistake as it is in keeping him.

Proven vets shouldn't regress going to another team. Cappa and Orlando Brown most notably haven't been as good here as they were in 
Tampa and Kansas City. This is a sign of bad coaching, along with the lack of growth in the young players in Volson and especially Carman.

All we can do is hope we add a vet RT like Eluemunor or the others I mentioned and hope Pollack improves in his coaching.

There’s more to it than just “it’s the coach.” Killer goose has made some good breakdowns on why Zac and Callahan’s offense was not particularly OL friendly. It will be interesting to see if that improves at all under Pitcher.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-12-2024, 06:41 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: There’s more to it than just “it’s the coach.” Killer goose has made some good breakdowns on why Zac and Callahan’s offense was not particularly OL friendly. It will be interesting to see if that improves at all under Pitcher.

That is true. Cannot put it all on Pollack, Pitcher and the new pass game Coordinator Rascati could help. We will see.

Getting a RT in FA needs to happen though. Honestly think we can do better than Jonah at RT. Any of Trent Brown, Onwenu or Eluemunor
could be better. Especially with Burrow healthy and our Offense opened up again. So true about the Offense not being friendly for our OL 
last year with Burrow hurt. It put the OL in a tough position always having to play passive with the QB always in the Shotgun.

[Essex Johnson]

(02-12-2024, 05:49 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: FWIW, PFF ranks for the last two OT classes:

2023:
#6: Paris Johnson, Cardinals: 60.1
#9: Darnell Wright, Bears: 62.4
#10: Peter Skoronski: 61.6 (at G)
#14: Broderick Jones, Steelers: 60.7
#27: Anton Harrison, Jags: 53.0
------------
#65: Tyler Steen, Philly: 53.2 (at G, 71 snaps)
#92: Wanya Morris, KC: 54.6
#103: Nick Saldiveri, NO: 52.1 (at G, 18 snaps)
#106: Blake Freeland, Colts: 44.2
#111: Dawand Jones, Browns: 64.7

While I am firmly against paying big for a mediocre OT in FA, the idea that some rookie OT is gonna blow our doors off year 1 seems unlikely. The best graded guy was Rd4.

But maybe it was a 1 yearcthing and a bad tackle class? Let's go back two:

#6: Ikem Ekwonu, Carolina: 65.3, 67.4
#7: Evan Neal, NYG: 44.1, 39.8
#9: Charles Cross, Seattle: 63.7, 67.6
#19: Trevor Penning, NO: 73.6 (124 snaps), 53.6
#24: Tyler Smith, Dallas: 71.4, 72.9 (at G, Pro Bowl)

That class did better, but mid 60s is about as good as it gets. Smith was 70's at G.

Jonah's first two look steller by comparison. The last two, not so much. Though the injury in '22 and switching sides mitigate it somewhat.

But I have to say, I suspect rooks killing it is the exception rather than the rule. Especially in the trenches.

PFF are one measure that has its issues as a whole, the best measure is what the Bengals organization have on how they see Williams production and what they feel about the draft class,

i stated before we can;t have this loser attitude that our pick in 1st round won;t be a starter at #18, at some point you have to draft replacements, you can't hope for FA every year or a rotating door either also from all accounts this is a solid top tier RT group so looks like a good time to draft one.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-12-2024, 06:49 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: PFF are one measure that has its issues as a whole, the best measure is what the Bengals organization have on how they see Williams production and what they feel about the draft class,

i stated before we can;t have this loser attitude that our pick in 1st round won;t be a starter at #18, at some point you have to draft replacements, you can't hope for FA every year or a rotating door either also from all accounts this is a solid top tier RT group so looks like a good time to draft one.

There are some good ones to be had at 18, but we cannot rely on a rookie to be an upgrade when we are trying to win a Superbowl now.

We need a proven RT and a proven DT in FA. These are our needs. After we take care of these needs we can draft how ever we like.

[BFritz21]

(02-12-2024, 06:37 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, sounds like Pollack is sticking around as much as a mistake as it is in keeping him.

Proven vets shouldn't regress going to another team. Cappa and Orlando Brown most notably haven't been as good here as they were in 
Tampa and Kansas City. This is a sign of bad coaching, along with the lack of growth in the young players in Volson and especially Carman.

All we can do is hope we add a vet RT like Eluemunor or the others I mentioned and hope Pollack improves in his coaching.

I don't understand why he hasn't at least tried to switch things up from the zone wide scheme into anything else that could possibly work. 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over-and-over and expecting a different result, but that seems to be the motto of the franchise, even more than just Mike Brown's stubborn wrinkly ass!

(02-12-2024, 06:41 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: There’s more to it than just “it’s the coach.” Killer goose has made some good breakdowns on why Zac and Callahan’s offense was not particularly OL friendly. It will be interesting to see if that improves at all under Pitcher.

That was my first thought with the Pitcher hire: please help the o-line!

Maybe he'll convince Pollack to move away from the zone blocking scheme.

[pulses]

(02-12-2024, 11:35 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: You posted a little cartoon of the dog & the fire. It is pretty intellectually dishonest to say you were not saying he was a dum0ster fire/bust. 

Just like it is intellectually dishonest to focus on 1 year out of 5 evaluating a player. 

Just like it is intellectually dishonest to say I said Jonah was a sucess. I didn't. I just said he wasn't a bust/failure. 

Sorry that the two good years and the injury 2 years ago don't help your argument. Nor the fact that we throw a ton vs some of the best rushers in the league. Those are facts, not excuses. 

People on this board go on for pages about Pollack & how offensive lineman we get here never grade out as well as before. Well, no duh. They were not playing Pitt/Cle/Bal 2x a year in a spread offense. It is not rocket science. 

Now, having said all that, I certainly don't think Jonah is worth $15 mil. We need to get more athletic on the OL. That means drafting a higher quality of player. 

Overpaying for ANOTHER  OK-ish, average level starter is not a fix, it is a band aid. We are probably picking as high as we will with Prime Burrow AND simultaneously having the strongest OT class in memory. Gotta take advantage. 

Top tier Cs & Gs can be had late first or second regularly. Or even 3rd. But late first gor a top tier OT is rare. It has to be now. 

If you wanna pay a band-aid too, that is fine. But it is a band-aid. Not a fix. 

Tag and trade Tee and # 18 to NE for #3 and #68 and then we draft Alt

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-12-2024, 07:25 PM)pulses Wrote: Tag and trade Tee and # 18 to NE for #3 and #68 and then we draft Alt

That’s a terrible deal for NE.

[*bfine32*]

(02-12-2024, 06:13 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: For gits and shiggles  the top 18 from last year:

1. Young, QB, Carolina:  56.0
2. Stroud, QB, Houston: 82.8
3. Anderson: Edge, Houston: 81.8
4. Richardson, QB: Colts: 52.2
5. Witherspoon, CB, Seattle: 84.1
6. Johnson, OT, Cardinals: 60.1
7. Wilson, DE/Edge, Raiders: 47.1
8. Robinson, RB, Falcons: 69.1
9. Carter, DE, Eagles: 89.0
10. Wright, OT, Bears: 62.4
11. Skoronski, OG: Titans: 61.6
12. Gibbs, RB, Lions: 74.5
13. Van Ness, DE, GB: 64.0
14. Jones, OT, Steelers: 60.7
15. McDonald, Edge, Jets: 71.6
16. Forbes, CB, Washington: 50.9
17. Gonzalez, CB, NE: 80.8
18. Campbell, LB, Lions: 57.3
19: Kancey, DT, Bucs: 46.6

Are you some sort of math wizard?

[casear2727]

(02-12-2024, 11:35 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: You posted a little cartoon of the dog & the fire. It is pretty intellectually dishonest to say you were not saying he was a dum0ster fire/bust. 

Just like it is intellectually dishonest to focus on 1 year out of 5 evaluating a player. 

Just like it is intellectually dishonest to say I said Jonah was a sucess. I didn't. I just said he wasn't a bust/failure. 

Sorry that the two good years and the injury 2 years ago don't help your argument. Nor the fact that we throw a ton vs some of the best rushers in the league. Those are facts, not excuses. 

People on this board go on for pages about Pollack & how offensive lineman we get here never grade out as well as before. Well, no duh. They were not playing Pitt/Cle/Bal 2x a year in a spread offense. It is not rocket science. 

Now, having said all that, I certainly don't think Jonah is worth $15 mil. We need to get more athletic on the OL. That means drafting a higher quality of player. 

Overpaying for ANOTHER  OK-ish, average level starter is not a fix, it is a band aid. We are probably picking as high as we will with Prime Burrow AND simultaneously having the strongest OT class in memory. Gotta take advantage. 

Top tier Cs & Gs can be had late first or second regularly. Or even 3rd. But late first gor a top tier OT is rare. It has to be now. 

If you wanna pay a band-aid too, that is fine. But it is a band-aid. Not a fix. 

You continually complaining about that cartoon is baffling.  It was a joke, kinda, but Jonah's career here was NOT fine.  Not even close to fine for a #11 pick.  At least not to my standards, you may be a bit more forgiving.

When did I say to overpay for an average starter?
Why are you projecting what I think?  Is it to help you make your point?

[sandwedge]

(02-12-2024, 06:28 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Even if we all, draft experts included, agree that Eluemunor should be the pick, I don't trust Pollack not to ruin him, much-less coach him to perform like a first round draft pick.

Even if Pollack's job was to "not ruin him," I'm not sure I'd trust Pollack.

I guess we don't have much of a choice at this point though.

He is a FA not a draft pick

[BFritz21]

(02-12-2024, 11:17 PM)sandwedge Wrote: He is a FA not a draft pick

Yeah. Don't know what I was thinking lol

[sandwedge]

(02-12-2024, 11:40 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Yeah. Don't know what I was thinking lol

All good Bradley

[BFritz21]

(02-13-2024, 02:05 AM)sandwedge Wrote: All good Bradley

Rep for spelling the name correctly! Seems simple but most people spell it Bradly!

[Whatever]

(02-12-2024, 05:49 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: FWIW, PFF ranks for the last two OT classes:

2023:
#6: Paris Johnson, Cardinals: 60.1
#9: Darnell Wright, Bears: 62.4
#10: Peter Skoronski: 61.6 (at G)
#14: Broderick Jones, Steelers: 60.7
#27: Anton Harrison, Jags: 53.0
------------
#65: Tyler Steen, Philly: 53.2 (at G, 71 snaps)
#92: Wanya Morris, KC: 54.6
#103: Nick Saldiveri, NO: 52.1 (at G, 18 snaps)
#106: Blake Freeland, Colts: 44.2
#111: Dawand Jones, Browns: 64.7

While I am firmly against paying big for a mediocre OT in FA, the idea that some rookie OT is gonna blow our doors off year 1 seems unlikely. The best graded guy was Rd4.

But maybe it was a 1 yearcthing and a bad tackle class? Let's go back two:

#6: Ikem Ekwonu, Carolina: 65.3, 67.4
#7: Evan Neal, NYG: 44.1, 39.8
#9: Charles Cross, Seattle: 63.7, 67.6
#19: Trevor Penning, NO: 73.6 (124 snaps), 53.6
#24: Tyler Smith, Dallas: 71.4, 72.9 (at G, Pro Bowl)

That class did better, but mid 60s is about as good as it gets. Smith was 70's at G.

Jonah's first two look steller by comparison. The last two, not so much. Though the injury in '22 and switching sides mitigate it somewhat.

But I have to say, I suspect rooks killing it is the exception rather than the rule. Especially in the trenches.

Being fair, the last two T classes were bad(2023 just brutally so).  If you really took time to dig into the prospects and if you didn't go into your analysis just sold on "we need to draft a starting T", it was pretty plain to see.

The current class, imho, is a better class than the '21 class.  Looking at the Day 1/2  kid's rookie years...

Penei Sewell-77.0
Rashawn Slater-83.6
Alex Leatherwood-45.0
Christian Darrisaw-71.9

Walker Little -68.5
Sam Cosmi-74.9
Dillon Radunz-49.7
Teven Jenkins -47.5
Brady Christensen -61.6

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(02-12-2024, 08:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Are you some sort of math wizard?

I threw in Kancey at the last minute and was too lazy to edit the start of the post.

I did not realize he was #19. He was a guy who I was high on last year who did not grade out well via PFF.  

I also like Newton a lot. Same kind of player. 

Agree wholeheartedly that DT & RT should be the priorities in FA. Along with bringing back Tee. Tee + 2 (starters) should be the goal. Though I am willing to double dip at DT (Reader + DT) if needed.