{The Ultimate ANDY DALTON Mega Thread}

[Hammerthis]

(01-13-2016, 02:22 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: I'm not one of them, BUT....





I keep having this lingering irrational thought where I blame Dalton for this playoff loss.  That his stupid interception and childlike attempt at tackling is what doomed us.

Always bigger fish to fry when it comes to holding our starting QB accountable for stupid decisions. It's best swept under the rug. 

[Hammerthis]

(01-13-2016, 02:40 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The Patriots traded Matt Cassel after he led them to an 11-5 record in 2008. He was so well regarded at that point, that the Pats got a 2nd rounder for him. 

As for Tom Brady being good enough to not need a backup, that's silly. The Pats traded Cassel after Brady missed an entire season. Any starter can get injured.

Dalton may not be Brady (who is?), but he's still a top 8 QB.

Matt Cassel s not a good QB and you would know that if you regarded watching football as important as reading stats!
Obviously, the coaching staff knew what they were doing by desregarding stats and getting rid of Cassel. He's a bum!

[Shake n Blake]

(01-13-2016, 02:49 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: Matt Cassel s not a good QB and you would know that if you regarded watching football as important as reading stats!
Obviously, the coaching staff knew what they were doing by desregarding stats and getting rid of Cassel. He's a bum!

It's easy to say that now - as Cassel's career is almost over - but Cassel was considered a good QB in 2008. He did well for the Pats and garnered a 2nd round pick. There's no question that he was a good backup for the Pats and he accomplished more in 2008 than McCarron has. 

[Essex Johnson]

(01-13-2016, 02:49 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: Matt Cassel s not a good QB and you would know that if you regarded watching football as important as reading stats!
Obviously, the coaching staff knew what they were doing by desregarding stats and getting rid of Cassel. He's a bum!

Ok here is the problem with your analysis.  You are judging Cassel now.. how do you think people judged him after going 10-5 in his year he started for NE (remember he was a backup) or when he took KC to the playoffs in his second year with that team.

So lets put things in perspective, the praise AJM has gotten is for 4 games.... we don;t really know how that will amount for a NFL career.  Cassell never was able to sustain what he did his first 3 years and I am sure he got more praise and was expected to be  successful than AJM has after just 4 games.

Now what we do know about Dalton is in his 5th year he was having his best season yet and has continued to move the bar and sustain success.

[Hammerthis]

(01-13-2016, 02:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's easy to say that now - as Cassel's career is almost over - but Cassel was considered a good QB in 2008. He did well for the Pats and garnered a 2nd round pick. There's no question that he was a good backup for the Pats and he accomplished more in 2008 than McCarron has. 

In 2008, you're absolutely right! Cassel, based on numbers alone, was considered good! But his coaches, who see a lot more of him than anyone, knew better.
Looking at him play, I never thought he was a good QB. He happened to find himself in the right fit with New England. 
I think a lot of good QBs never get the right fit, and are written off as bums.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-13-2016, 03:06 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: In 2008, you're absolutely right! Cassel, based on numbers alone, was considered good! But his coaches, who see a lot more of him than anyone, knew better.
Looking at him play, I never thought he was a good QB. He happened to find himself in the right fit with New England. 
I think a lot of good QBs never get the right fit, and are written off as bums.

He also did a nice job early with KC just never sustained it..  and NE did see a lot in him for also so I discount the idea that people in the league were not impressed with him early in his career.. read below

In February 2009, the Patriots used theirfranchise tag on Cassel, extending him a one-year contract worth over $14 million, the largest one-year contract for an offensive player in NFL history.[1][2] Later that offseason, the Patriots made a trade which sent Cassel to the Kansas City Chiefs,[3] who signed him to a 6-year, $62.7 million contract in July 2009. In 2010, Cassel led the Chiefs to their first divisional championship in seven years, and earned a Pro Bowl berth in the process.

[Hammerthis]

(01-13-2016, 02:57 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Ok here is the problem with your analysis.  You are judging Cassel now.. how do you think people judged him after going 10-5 in his year he started for NE (remember he was a backup) or when he took KC to the playoffs in his second year with that team.

So lets put things in perspective, the praise AJM has gotten is for 4 games.... we don;t really know how that will amount for a NFL career.  Cassell never was able to sustain what he did his first 3 years and I am sure he got more praise and was expected to be  successful than AJM has after just 4 games.

Now what we do know about Dalton is in his 5th year he was having his best season yet and has continued to move the bar and sustain success.

I'm judging the quarterbacks on their individual performance (what I see), the quality of players surrounding them and the system that they operate in.
From that, I come to a conclusion of their value to there individual teams.
 

[Essex Johnson]

(01-13-2016, 03:16 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: I'm judging the quarterbacks on their individual performance (what I see), the quality of players surrounding them and the system that they operate in.
From that, I come to a conclusion of their value to there individual teams.
 

So you would have disagreed with the NE organization and KC organization back then .. so good question how did you judge Dalton after his 1st year and how has that judgement changed since then ?

[Hammerthis]

(01-13-2016, 03:14 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: He also did a nice job early with KC just never sustained it..  and NE did see a lot in him for also so I discount the idea that people in the league were not impressed with him early in his career.. read below

In February 2009, the Patriots used theirfranchise tag on Cassel, extending him a one-year contract worth over $14 million, the largest one-year contract for an offensive player in NFL history.[1][2] Later that offseason, the Patriots made a trade which sent Cassel to the Kansas City Chiefs,[3] who signed him to a 6-year, $62.7 million contract in July 2009. In 2010, Cassel led the Chiefs to their first divisional championship in seven years, and earned a Pro Bowl berth in the process.

Let's get real! For several reasons the QB position is the hardest spot to fill. With one of the reasons being its the most difficult position to perform. But also because teams make decisions at the quarterback position to put fans in the seat. 
Look at the situations in Miami, Detroit, Houston, Chicago and etc. Sometimes (imo) teams sign quarterbacks knowing they're not true winners, but because the fans believe in them. 
I'll admit it's not always easy to tell when this happens on draft-day, but when they resign them to big contracts without proven a dam thing, it's obvious why they're doing it. Not because he's a good QB, but for the fans. It's business!

[Hammerthis]

(01-13-2016, 03:19 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: So you would have disagreed with the NE organization and KC organization back then .. so good question how did you judge Dalton after his 1st year and how has that judgement changed since then ?

I except their decisions for what they were, business.
I'll admit I was wrong on Andy. But for obvious reasons, I still don't trust him 100%

[Essex Johnson]

(01-13-2016, 03:32 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: Let's get real! For several reasons the QB position is the hardest spot to fill. With one of the reasons being its the most difficult position to perform. But also because teams make decisions at the quarterback position to put fans in the seat. 
Look at the situations in Miami, Detroit, Houston, Chicago and etc. Sometimes (imo) teams sign quarterbacks knowing they're not true winners, but because the fans believe in them. 
I'll admit it's not always easy to tell when this happens on draft-day, but when they resign them to big contracts without proven a dam thing, it's obvious why they're doing it. Not because he's a good QB, but for the fans. It's business!

here is the problem when looking at Cassel.. NE put the franchise tag on him.. meaning they were obligated to pay him that amount of money.. so they were fine with paying him that much money if a trade did not work out.. usually a franchise tag has the opposite result of what really happened.. most franchise tag players do not get traded.. 

So it was a business decision but two fold... One NE liked Cassel so much they tagged him but then they got such a great offer by KC, they took the offer.  Remember he was a backup for Brady so he was never going to replace Brady but they liked him a lot to franchise him.,

[Essex Johnson]

(01-13-2016, 03:37 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: I except their decisions for what they were, business.
I'll admit I was wrong on Andy. But for obvious reasons, I still don't trust him 100%

So your individual judgement on Andy was wrong in the beginning.. far enough..... I will have to say my individual judgement on Andy was correct, I could see he had the skills and the will to get better and would not be distracted like other young athletes have been by early success..  but where I was wrong was on Sanu.. I thought he would have moved the bar more than he has... I like him but he has not achieved what success i thought he would by now.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-13-2016, 03:32 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: Let's get real! For several reasons the QB position is the hardest spot to fill. With one of the reasons being its the most difficult position to perform. But also because teams make decisions at the quarterback position to put fans in the seat. 
Look at the situations in Miami, Detroit, Houston, Chicago and etc. Sometimes (imo) teams sign quarterbacks knowing they're not true winners, but because the fans believe in them. 
I'll admit it's not always easy to tell when this happens on draft-day, but when they resign them to big contracts without proven a dam thing, it's obvious why they're doing it. Not because he's a good QB, but for the fans. It's business!

We come with facts, such as Cassel's performance, his trade value and the contract he signed.

Yet your idea of "getting real" is some made up scenario where teams trade 2nd round picks and $60 million dollar contracts for QBs they know aren't any good, simply so they can appease their fan base. You don't seriously believe that do you?

[Hammerthis]

(01-13-2016, 04:00 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We come with facts, such as Cassel's performance, his trade value and the contract he signed.

Yet your idea of "getting real" is some made up scenario where teams trade 2nd round picks and $60 million dollar contracts for QBs they know aren't any good, simply so they can appease their fan base. You don't seriously believe that do you?

You come with the same crap! If Cassel was worth a dam he wouldn't perform the way he does. How can you say how much team is willing to pay to put fans in the seat? We're talking about billionaires spending millions and making millions in return.
Try explaining why the ineptness at the QB position on so many teams. Imo initially, the fans believed in them and the owners react. Even though they stink on the field, as you know, the owners still make money,

[Essex Johnson]

(01-13-2016, 04:00 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We come with facts, such as Cassel's performance, his trade value and the contract he signed.

Yet your idea of "getting real" is some made up scenario where teams trade 2nd round picks and $60 million dollar contracts for QBs they know aren't any good, simply so they can appease their fan base. You don't seriously believe that do you?

As I stated Cassel had a good early start but did not sustain it.. I did read he lost arm strength during his career and dealt with injuries so im sure that was part of dismiss as starter and backup now... 

Aso for other teams extending contracts on QBs.. the reason is less fan base and more lack of QB's out there .... I would not call Stafford or Tannenhill as disasters at Qb.. 

In the end if you don;t win you lose your fan base as a whole... 

For example.. the Reds traded Chapman knowing he is a fan favorite but they are looking to the future hope of winning not how the fans feel now with Chapman gone

[Hammerthis]

(01-13-2016, 04:17 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: For example.. the Reds traded Chapman knowing he is a fan favorite but they are looking to the future hope of winning not how the fans feel now with Chapman gone

I never said "teams always or only make decisions based on what fans want". Imo they look at the draft, FAs and yes, fan favorites. 
I think it goes without saying money plays a role, and if they can get a high quality player and a fan favorite, they'll do it.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-13-2016, 04:11 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: You come with the same crap! If Cassel was worth a dam he wouldn't perform the way he does. How can you say how much team is willing to pay to put fans in the seat? We're talking about billionaires spending millions and making millions in return.
Try explaining why the ineptness at the QB position on so many teams. Imo initially, the fans believed in them and the owners react. Even though they stink on the field, as you know, the owners still make money,

You know what makes money for NFL teams? Winning. Trading away draft picks and huge contracts for QBs doesn't happen unless the team has SOME belief that the QB can help them win. At the time KC pulled that trade, they had also just hired Scott Pioli as GM (from the Pats) and Romeo Crennel as HC (from the Pats). They wanted Cassel, and not just to temporarily excite the fan base. They thought the kid could win (he was coming off an 11-5 season) and they wanted as much of the NE influence as possible.

If they knew Cassel sucked and just brought him in to excite fans, it was an idiotic decision as fans want to WIN. Trading away draft picks and making a huge commitment to a QB they knew couldn't hack it would set the team back for years and actually drive fans away. It's not hard to understand why your logic is flawed here.

(01-13-2016, 04:17 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: As I stated Cassel had a good early start but did not sustain it.. I did read he lost arm strength during his career and dealt with injuries so im sure that was part of dismiss as starter and backup now... 

Makes sense. He really fell off after 2-3 promising seasons.

[Hammerthis]

(01-13-2016, 04:36 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You know what makes money for NFL teams? Winning. Trading away draft picks and huge contracts for QBs doesn't happen unless the team has SOME belief that the QB can help them win. At the time KC pulled that trade, they had also just hired Scott Pioli as GM (from the Pats) and Romeo Crennel as HC (from the Pats). They wanted Cassel, and not just to temporarily excite the fan base. They thought the kid could win (he was coming off an 11-5 season) and they wanted as much of the NE influence as possible.

If they knew Cassel sucked and just brought him in to excite fans, it was an idiotic decision as fans want to WIN. Trading away draft picks and making a huge commitment to a QB they knew couldn't hack it would set the team back for years and actually drive fans away. It's not hard to understand why your logic is flawed here.


Makes sense. He really fell off after 2-3 promising seasons.

Yes, if I'm able to see Cassel was never what his best year numbers indicate, I feel NFL coaches can too.
It's possible because you believe in what you're saying, makes you unable to read between the lines with what NFL owners are doing.  I agree teams make more money when they win, but one of the first thing teams want is to "stabilized earnings". I think most owners are content with that.
In fact, one of the reasons MB keeps ML around is due to "stabilized high earnings". In fact Andy and ML may never win a playoff game, but don't expect change if high earning remain. It's business.

[BengalChris]

I don't understand the fascination with trading McCarron. He's not going to bring a high pick with only 4 starts and don't we need a good QB who can come in off the bench?

If we traded him for a pick we'd still need to use a pick on another QB who may or may not be even decent. Too many QBs come into the league with fan fair only to depart out the back door. Ponder, Gabbert, Kaepernick (team wants him right now, but their coaches didn't), even RGIII is departing Washington as a bust.

We happened to pick a serviceable guy up in the 5th round, so be happy about. Don't send him packing for 3rd then hope and pray that whoever you pick will some day be as good as what you already have. Makes no sense.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-13-2016, 09:32 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I don't understand the fascination with trading McCarron. He's not going to bring a high pick with only 4 starts and don't we need a good QB who can come in off the bench?

If we traded him for a pick we'd still need to use a pick on another QB who may or may not be even decent. Too many QBs come into the league with fan fair only to depart out the back door. Ponder, Gabbert, Kaepernick (team wants him right now, but their coaches didn't), even RGIII is departing Washington as a bust.

We happened to pick a serviceable guy up in the 5th round, so be happy about. Don't send him packing for 3rd then hope and pray that whoever you pick will some day be as good as what you already have. Makes no sense.

I'm happy either way. If we keep Mac, we have a good backup. The only way I'd trade him now is if someone dangled a 2nd round pick. Otherwise, I'd keep him this year. Now next year? I'd actively look for a trade partner because when Mac's contract is up, he's as good as gone. He'll surely look for a place where he can compete for a starting gig.