Margus Hunt

[fredtoast]

(03-04-2016, 12:56 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: He played in Conference USA.  It's not like he was going up against all star, NFL ready talent every week.  When he got to the NFL, and had to face a higher level of competitor, he has suffered mightily.  It's simple... he could dominate at the college level just because he was bigger and faster than his competition.  Not so at the NFL level.

Except it is not that simple.  Every year there are players from smaller schools and smaller conferences that become stars in the NFL.

if you just automatically disregard every player that is not froma power 5 conference you are going to missout on a lot of good players.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(03-04-2016, 01:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Except it is not that simple.  Every year there are players from smaller schools and smaller conferences that become stars in the NFL.

if you just automatically disregard every player that is not froma power 5 conference you are going to missout on a lot of good players.

It is that simple when you factor in he was a 23 year old grown man going up against 18 and 19 year olds for a lot of his play. 
I remember his senior year people were going nuts over one of his games against a true freshman OT. 

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-04-2016, 01:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Except it is not that simple.  Every year there are players from smaller schools and smaller conferences that become stars in the NFL.

if you just automatically disregard every player that is not froma power 5 conference you are going to missout on a lot of good players.

Agree that there are some great players who come out of smaller schools.  I just don't think saying "he dominated against less competition in college, why can't he do anything in the NFL" is legitimate question.  I may be looking at it from too simple of a perspective, but it seems logical to me.

[fredtoast]

(03-04-2016, 01:10 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Agree that there are some great players who come out of smaller schools.  I just don't think saying "he dominated against less competition in college, why can't he do anything in the NFL" is legitimate question.  I may be looking at it from too simple of a perspective, but it seems logical to me.

I don't see how it can seem so logical to you when history proves you are wrong.

There have been guys who dominated physically against weaker competition and also dominated in the NFL.  Look ad David Johnson from Northern Iowa this year.  The year before that there was Kahlil Mack from Buffalo, Joel Bitonio from Nevada, plus Derek Carr and Devante Adams from Fresno State.

And here is a partial list of players from the Conference USA 

Brandon Marshall Pro bowl WR
Latavius Murray Pro Bowl RB
Linval Joseph 5 year starter DT
Blake Bortles starting QB
Chris Johnson All Pro RB
Ahmed Bradshaw 2 X 1000 td rusher
Roddy White All Pro WR
Jamie Collins starting LB for Super Bowl Champions
Emmanual Sanders starting WR for Super Bowl Champion
Sebastion Vollmer starting RT for Super Bowl Champion
Matt Forte Pro Bowl RB


You can't just write off all players from Conference because they are not a power 5 conference.

[fredtoast]

(03-04-2016, 01:08 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: It is that simple when you factor in he was a 23 year old grown man going up against 18 and 19 year olds for a lot of his play. 

You have a point, but again you go too far.

Hunt was 22 when he started his career at SMU.  Throughout his career he faced more 20 and 21 year old juniors and seniors because more juniors and seniors start than freshmen and sophomores.

And even if his opponents were weaker that does not make Hunt weaker.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(03-04-2016, 02:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have a point, but again you go too far.

Hunt was 22 when he started his career at SMU.  Throughout his career he faced more 20 and 21 year old juniors and seniors because more juniors and seniors start than freshmen and sophomores.

And even if his opponents were weaker that does not make Hunt weaker.

I didn't go too far. You cleverly edited out the rest of my post.

His best days came against guys who were not grown men like he was.

The highlights people had their panties wet for Hunt over were of him against a true freshman, when he was ragdolling the kid. 

[BengalChris]

Small school has nothing to do with it. He was a project coming out of college and was selected in the 2nd round based on some high hopes that he'd turn into a starter. I mean, who would spend a 2nd round pick on a player you didn't expect to start? No body!

So, really, the issue is that he's a bust. Big school, small school makes no difference. A bust is a bust.

And this pick followed the previous year's 2nd round pick of Devon Still.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-04-2016, 02:45 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Small school has nothing to do with it. He was a project coming out of college and was selected in the 2nd round based on some high hopes that he'd turn into a starter. I mean, who would spend a 2nd round pick on a player you didn't expect to start? No body!

So, really, the issue is that he's a bust. Big school, small school makes no difference. A bust is a bust.

And this pick followed the previous year's 2nd round pick of Devon Still.

And the Still pick followed the previous year's third round pick of Moch.

And Hunt's pick was followed by the third round pick of Will Clarke.


...They've pretty much been a big 'ol Pittsburgh-level of a turdpile when it comes to drafting DL ever since they got Atkins.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(03-04-2016, 02:53 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: And the Still pick followed the previous year's third round pick of Moch.

And Hunt's pick was followed by the third round pick of Will Clarke.


...They've pretty much been a big 'ol Pittsburgh-level of a turdpile when it comes to drafting DL ever since they got Atkins.

Not just DL. 
Defense in general. 

George Iloka is the only starter drafted on defense who is "above average" since 2011. 

[BengalChris]

(03-04-2016, 02:56 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Not just DL. 
Defense in general. 

George Iloka is the only starter drafted on defense who is "above average" since 2011. 

That is true, except that I believe Dennard is going to shine if he can stay healthy. And I more or less count Burfict in the mix cause they knew they could snag him as rookie free agent.

I'm looking for a big defensive draft this year. I've had enough of the over drafted projects.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(03-04-2016, 03:00 PM)BengalChris Wrote: That is true, except that I believe Dennard is going to shine if he can stay healthy.

I'm looking for a big defensive draft this year. I've had enough of the over drafted projects.

I have big hopes for a lot of the DBs. 
But they haven't produced yet for various reasons so you can't really give them any credit either. 

Shawn Williams, Josh Shaw, Derron Smith and Darqueze Dennard are all potentially good players. I have a lot of hope in all of them.

Here's the Bengals defensive drafts:

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-04-2016, 03:04 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I have big hopes for a lot of the DBs. 
But they haven't produced yet for various reasons so you can't really give them any credit either. 

Shawn Williams, Josh Shaw, Derron Smith and Darqueze Dennard are all potentially good players. I have a lot of hope in all of them.

Here's the Bengals defensive drafts:

But seriously, that list.... depressing.

[fredtoast]

(03-04-2016, 02:56 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: George Iloka is the only starter drafted on defense who is "above average" since 2011. 

Can't argue with this.  It is only a three year span, and it is too early to judge the guys from last year, but so far we have no real "hits".

And it isn't really proper to say the '12 draft was not that bad because we got Iloka.  A fifth round pick is pretty much luck.  Especially when we spent three picks on defensive players in the first three rounds and didn't get much at all.  Kirkpatrick is not as bad as some here claim, but he has under performed for a first round pick.  Still was a complete bust, and even though Thompson provided some decent back up that is nothing special for a third round pick.

[BengalChris]

(03-04-2016, 03:04 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I have big hopes for a lot of the DBs. 
But they haven't produced yet for various reasons so you can't really give them any credit either. 

Shawn Williams, Josh Shaw, Derron Smith and Darqueze Dennard are all potentially good players. I have a lot of hope in all of them.

Here's the Bengals defensive drafts:

Oh, that list hurts. It's painful to look at actually.

[fredtoast]

(03-05-2016, 12:23 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Oh, that list hurts. It's painful to look at actually.

Then don't look at the draft.  Watch the games on the field.  We have a top 5 defense in the league.

Don't know how this is possible when according to some people here we can not draft talent and we never spend money on free agents, but I don't spend my time crying about how bad we are.  I just watch the games and enjoy how good we are.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-03-2016, 07:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Who are these "several" pass rushing DEs who got better after they left Cincinnati?

Alfred Williams
Steve Foley
Justin Smith
Ahmad Brooks 

Just off the top of my head...

[RoyleRedlegs]

(03-05-2016, 11:10 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Then don't look at the draft.  Watch the games on the field.  We have a top 5 defense in the league.

Don't know how this is possible when according to some people here we can not draft talent and we never spend money on free agents, but I don't spend my time crying about how bad we are.  I just watch the games and enjoy how good we are.

And if you want to keep a top 5 defense in the NFL, you need to keep your young talent and keep hitting in the draft to take the place for the older ones. 
The Bengals are essentially in a position of needing everyone in 2015 on defense to pan out to average or above average or hit a hail mary on a guy in the 2016 draft. 

[fredtoast]

(03-05-2016, 09:30 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Alfred Williams
Steve Foley
Justin Smith
Ahmad Brooks 

Just off the top of my head...

We tried Brooks at different positions, but even Mike Zimmer could get anything out of him.  He was a 3-4 OLB for the niners

Justin Smith had the exact same number of sacks (43.5) in the exact same number of years (7) with both the Bengals and Niners.

Steve Foley had one good season in his entire career.  He had 10 sacks for the Chargers when he was 29 and on his third team in three years.  His career was over a year later.  He didn't "flourish" anywhere.

And even if you want to nitpick about these guys the truth is that 4 examples over 2 decades is not exactly a huge trend.

[fredtoast]

(03-06-2016, 02:05 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: The Bengals are essentially in a position of needing everyone in 2015 on defense to pan out to average or above average or hit a hail mary on a guy in the 2016 draft. 

This is assuming we do not re-sign a single one of our potential free agents, right?

I don't think that is going to happen.

[muskiesfan]

Make no mistake, the Bengals had a very good stretch of drafting. Where they continue to drop the ball is they almost always want to draft a project or 2. Generally around round 3, but they seriously jumped the gun on Hunt.

I don't know if it's the small scouting department, being cheap, or just plain ignorance, but shouldn't you save the projects for the late rounds (5-7)? You first 3-4 rounds you should be focusing on talent that could potentially come in and play Day 1. You shouldn't be wasting those picks on guys you hope to turn into a starter by the end of their rookie deal. I'm sure someone can throw out a list of project players taken in the first 4 rounds that became something. I honestly don't care how long the list is because the list of talent based picks that became something will be considerably longer.

If the Bengals are going to continue to waste high value picks on project players, I'd rather them trade the picks away. The return they would get would probably fair much better than their next Hunt pick.